Confusion about EI and other myths

yme

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owh wauw!

1-2 ppm/day is really a lot! for me it equals adding 80-160 ml flourish iron per 90 gallon. didn't you have problems with brown water? :p

In any case, do I read correctly that you have your iron in your trace mix? ergo: high iron= high traces in general? or did you add iron seperately in this experiment? In my eyes, these are 2 totally different experiments.

greets,

yme
 

Tom Barr

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In a 90 gallon, you simply need maybe at most, 20-25mls tops per day or every other day.

I did that to illustrate that excess Fe causes no algae.

I added 200mls of flourish to a 20 gallon, 75 liter aquarium, no algae.

So............

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

yme

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right. :)
but this way it means basically something different: adding lots and lots of traces, including iron, in their "normal" ratio does not induce algae. then you can say that high iron in itself does not cause algae. but that might not be the complete story.

what would happen when you have a "normal" EI regime but add on top off that an overload of iron. would that still give no problems? could very well be, but the conslusion can only be drawn when the experiment is done.

So basically, you forget to mention the context (high other traces) when you make this statement.

greets,

yme
 

Tom Barr

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The iron is a proxy for the other traces, such as Cu, Zn, Mn, B.

So while the Fe is very high, the others are as well.

I did not test just Fe alone at those levels, however, several researchers I know have added 6-8ppm for Hydrilla and found increased rates of growth to 6ppm.
More did not increase growth rates

Hydrilla has little issue with CO2, so it gows like mad. Any nutrients are used up.

So that is an extreme case, but shows that it can make a significant difference in some species even at such high leves.

The other issue is that the high levels where not added for that lon, a few weeks and then back down to the 5-10mls every other day for each 75 liters of aquarium with high light

I think 5mls/75 liters is typically where you no longer see any gain benefit for adding more. You might add a tad more if you have a thick planted tank or go 5mls daily etc.

Folks claimed excess Fe led to hair algae, BBA, and thread algae(mostly this last one). Obviously, they were very wrong. Oddly, not many kept this myth up like they do for NO3 and PO4.

Not sure why.

Still, it was just ine more nutrient I had to address and look into. No one else did a good job seeing what really causes algae:cool: So I did it myself. I've still not met anyone worth a darn that knows jack about algae and germination and culture methods. But so many sure talk like they are experts on it, never having once induced growth on purpose or to confirm a theory etc.

You can tell right away if they are full of beans.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
P

paludarium

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Maybe we need a pH controller to regulate pressurized CO2. I have had a very positive experience without any plants and algae issue for years, because CO2 can be kept at a constant high level with the pH controller. However, the pH value set as control value is tank dependent, and should not be deceived by pH-KH-CO2 table.

An alternative to the expensive pH controller is dosing excel or glutaraldehyde, many Taiwanese hobbyists use pressurized CO2 in conjunction with glutaraldehyde to eliminate algae issues and to regain better plants growth, and with good results. However side effects include that some plants species will also be killed.

Regards,
Erich
 

Tom Barr

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Yes, some folks use that combo as well.

The pH controller is only as good as the KH supply and testing, and requires a responsive dosing method(high flow rate etc and good dissolving rate).
It also has issues if the pH probe is in a low flow area, always place in an area of high flow.

pH controllers are not the end all anymore than drop checker in some respects.

KH in tap often changes and many do not test it(KH) each water change and do not adjust the pH accordingly, so if the tap is softer suddenly, you are not putting in enough CO2............

And what happens if the KH goes up suddenly?
This is fine if the KH is really stable from the tap.

And you use it only during the day cycle.

Amano hates the pH controllers, lost a few tanks full of fish.
I have not done that, but come close. Just was luckier.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

TheKillHaa

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Now, i have a question that will answer my buddys on DrPez.
is the EI also a way to erradicate algae?
what happen when you add all nutrients to plants if the tank alrady has algae? as they will receive also no limiting nutrients. (including Co2 and light).?

is that EI can use for erradicate algae, or is used only for a "clean start from scratch tank"?

thanks in advance.
 

Tom Barr

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TheKillHaa;37000 said:
Now, i have a question that will answer my buddys on DrPez.
is the EI also a way to erradicate algae?
what happen when you add all nutrients to plants if the tank alrady has algae? as they will receive also no limiting nutrients. (including Co2 and light).?

is that EI can use for erradicate algae, or is used only for a "clean start from scratch tank"?

thanks in advance.

No, it's an indirect relationship with algae.
Algae will grow when there is a poor plant growth.
So poor conditions for growth of plants = algae.

Algae are neither CO2 nor nutrient limited, nor care if the water column or the sediment is the source, they have plenty in both cases.

Light is about the only limiting factor in our aquariums for algae.

I approach cleaning up aquariums with algae at the root cause: poor plant growth, once they start to grow well, then I can easily prune and clean up the algae.

Excel + CO2 works for BBA and other CO2 related species. Blackout is effective against many/most green algae and BGA, UV/Diatom for green water and so on.


Getting rid of the algae is not an issue when the parameters are good for plants.
Other things like removing too much plant biomass, poorly cycled tank, clogged filters, etc can cause algae issues and poor plant growth problems. I'm sure there's 1001 things than can and do cause problems.

I do not pretend to know every possible mistake aquarists on line might make with their set up. I can see things in person at the local club level and make suggestions and find solutions much easier/simpler. On line is much harder.

I do know what I can and have tested. Nothing more.

Excel + CO2 is a good way to dial in a good CO2 while you do this slowly, the Excel beats up on the algae(if it's a CO2 issue). This makes the CO2 dosing more forgiving but you have to dose/cost of the Excel also.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Tom Barr

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yme;34600 said:
right. :)
but this way it means basically something different: adding lots and lots of traces, including iron, in their "normal" ratio does not induce algae. then you can say that high iron in itself does not cause algae. but that might not be the complete story.

Yes, that is correct.

what would happen when you have a "normal" EI regime but add on top off that an overload of iron. would that still give no problems? could very well be, but the conslusion can only be drawn when the experiment is done.

So basically, you forget to mention the context (high other traces) when you make this statement.
greets,

yme

Yes, but I do have plenty of examples where I did use Fe alone and in conjunction with a general trace. I have several Kgs of Fe with 4 different chelators sitting here.

I've taken several mixtures of the other trace elements and Fe alone and dosed to note effects. If you remove the other trace elements, these become limiting if you use the plain sand, with ADA AS or MS, this is not the case(this has some of these traces included).

We can spike Fe alone on top of any trace dosing routine.
Atlas, many have and do.

Dupla suggested this with Dupla's Daily Fe.
This led to PMDD since the cost was about 30$ for a tiny little bottle.
ADA ECA is similar(a little cheaper but not much).

Seachem's flourish Iron is also similar(much cheaper and the Gluconate is a weaker bond and they used Fe2+, not Fe3+, not that it matters much).

Many folks dose a spike of Added Fe on top of their normal routine with traces as being "sexy", not because it does anything great, but perhaps more to simply add non limiting amounts of Fe to help those red plants or the plants in general with this specific micronutrient.

This has been done for at least 20 years now, no one has found any ill or negative effects, algae relationships of any kind. Not one case where I, others can go back and and time and time again, at least 50-80-95% of the time reproduce those results where algae or other issues occur due to excess Fe at 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 0.7, 1.0, 2.0 ppm. I've run extra Fe on top of the normal traces, but if you only dose Fe alone, and do not dose the other traces...........

Then that's not fair either, since those other traces are now limiting as well and the test is not independent.

Do we dose just enough for those and then add non limiting Fe levels(such as those suggested above) and see? How might you suggest we test for Excess Fe and keep the other factors from being problematic? Adding it to the sediment or the water column does not matter.

You dose those other traces, and then spike the Fe.
This is easy and I've done that.

I know some people have dosed just Fe, but the other nutrients coming in from food, sediments, leaching also play a role and tracking trace micronutrients is very difficult. I know it's nearly impossible for hobbyist.

So we accept some of the other traces and then manipulate the Fe alone, going up and down. Then add it to an otherwise well run stable tank that's doing well.

If you lack the well run planted tank and cannot manipulate it much without issues(eg, it's fragile), this does little good.

There are other issues occurring.

But if not, then you can test and try and see how adding more Fe might or might not Tweak the tank better. These are more Erik's comment's than my own, he did a lot with spiking the Fe, I just reasoned I'd add more of a general mix rather than spiking just one.

However, I have all sorts of Fe and often mix it into the generla trace mix and then note results. I'll add some general trace with gluconate Fe that yields .5ppm Fe on top of the normal 0.1ppm. With the DTPA, I'll add .7ppm extra.

So I often end up with 1.0ppm in theory after dosing. This quickly drops in the tank itself however, and Fe testing of the water is a poor method. We do not do that in aquatic botany, we remove the plants and measure the uptake of the nutrients of whatever we add to see and confirm the uptake and % in the dry biomass.

That + biomass growth difference is far more telling that merely the ppm's in the water. But it more work and not something hobbyists might test for 10$ with their water column Fe kits.

Here is the reference that will interest you most.
Haller was an adviser and is a personal friend.

CSA

SpringerLink - Journal Article

As you can see, higher % of translocation from the water column to the sediment and at 6-8ppm of ETDA Fe, extremely high levels and the plants grew like mad.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 

jeffatpm

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EI on a 55gal

any suggested estimates of amounts to dose minerals for a 55 gal tank? I've looked through the feed and didn't see something to give me an idea of how much to dose.
Thanks for your help.
 

VaughnH

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jeffatpm;38832 said:
any suggested estimates of amounts to dose minerals for a 55 gal tank? I've looked through the feed and didn't see something to give me an idea of how much to dose.
Thanks for your help.

40-60 Gallon Aquariums
about 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
about 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
about 3/4 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)
about 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

Fromm page one of this thread
 

The Rockster

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Initial Questions About EI Dosing Pertaining to Our Setup

Hi,

We are contemplating, in the near future of migrating to the EI Dosing strategy. We still have quite a lot of Sechem liquid ferts, purchasing 2 liter bottles on sale, some time back. This was during out aquarium "honeymoon" period, when for a year it was near perfect. At the time our thinking was, why fix it, if it ain't broke?

Since then we have created the tank from hell, and have bounced from one problem to the next. The results have been additional expense, fish and plant deaths, and valuable learning lessons, and many challenges.

Probably the best decision we have made, since starting this weird experience was subscribing to this forum. It has reduced our tank "issues" from fatal, to fixable with the help from this site.

Anyway, now we have obvious plant deficiencies. I will post this problem to the manufacturer's forum and don't really expect to learn what is the cause, or the remedy.

So, I have some preliminary questions, pertinent to our situation, that I don't see addressed on the net, although, its been a while since I read up on EI dosing.

We have a 72 gallon bowfront, with approximately 60 gallons, of water. I do weekly water changes, religiously. However, we only have the facilities to replace 24-26 gallons of water, per water change. I have read that to "reset" the tank a mandatory 50 % weekly water change is required.

I need to know if the lack of the difference would work................ie...........the 4 - 6 gallons???

My other concern is the long term effects on the fish. Have any studies been done on the longevity of Discus or Angels in the EI environment ??

Their life spans are 15 years (app.), and 10 years, respectively.

Between the additional bio load of these fish and the excessive dosing of the ferts, one may wonder about the purity of the water even with extreme filtration, and weekly, 50 % water changes.

Most of the advantages of EI we are aware of..................cost, circumventing the deficiencies, and water testing.
 

Tom Barr

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This tank has had 4 years worth of EI type dosing:

Resized350galafter.jpg


resized3503.jpg


Same fish going back 4 + years.

This one as well for the last 2-3 years:

resized8222208.jpg


Those are all F1 angels that have never seen any other aquarium.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 

chris81

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Hi guys,

My problem is that i seem to have misconceptions about proper light with respect to amount of watts to be used. My issue is this, by limiting light the system is further stabilised with respect to co2 and nutrient demands, however were is the tail off with respect to light intensity and plant growth.

Whats the lowest and "safest" light intensity for a 170 liter tank with glosso pogostemon and lilaenopsis with pressurised co2 and 10x tank volume turnover. Currently i am doing a DSM and i have a total of 156 watts on for ten hrs a day.

AFter reading this post i figured out that my tank will be a potental algal bloom just days after flooding.. WOuld you suggest that i lower light levels prior to flooding?? I have 4 39 watt t5 tubes.. should i reduce it to 117 watts?? WOuld it be enough for glosso not to become leggy??

Getting bit concerned!!

Thanks a million

Chris
 

Tom Barr

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chris81;44411 said:
Hi guys,

My problem is that i seem to have misconceptions about proper light with respect to amount of watts to be used. My issue is this, by limiting light the system is further stabilised with respect to co2 and nutrient demands, however were is the tail off with respect to light intensity and plant growth.

Whats the lowest and "safest" light intensity for a 170 liter tank with glosso pogostemon and lilaenopsis with pressurised co2 and 10x tank volume turnover. Currently i am doing a DSM and i have a total of 156 watts on for ten hrs a day.

AFter reading this post i figured out that my tank will be a potental algal bloom just days after flooding.. WOuld you suggest that i lower light levels prior to flooding?? I have 4 39 watt t5 tubes.. should i reduce it to 117 watts?? WOuld it be enough for glosso not to become leggy??

Getting bit concerned!!

Thanks a million

Chris

No oen can honestly tell you with taking a PAR meter to your tank and knowing what the plant species involved are.
Even there, there will be variation between aquariums, I'd say 10+/- micromols at the minimum levels.

Most aquatic species have a light compensation pojnt(LCP) around 20-30micromoles, good decent growth occurs from 30-50micromols for most species.

Now some further tweaking can knock these ranges to perhaps 5-10 micromoles less, but I'd rather have a little more room for growth, I do want and desier some growth, just not lots.
If you want lots, then 80 micromoles at the sediment surface should be plenty for most, if you want more, knock your self out.

But scale up the issue with more CO2/nutrients.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Gerryd

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Hi,

IMO, the 4 t5 bulbs is way overkill on a 40-45 gallon tank.

I assume the DSM is going well with the high light due to unlimited c02 in the atmosphere.

Since you do not have a PAR meter to accurately measure the light, we have to guess.

I think that reducing the light to 2-3 bulbs at most will help after flooding. Just keep the outer bulbs so a better spread is kept.

I personally would go with 2 bulbs at startup for 8-10 daily and guage how that growth is, how hard to keep c02 levels, etc. You can always add more light, c02, and nutes to get higher growth rates. It is easier to add light than remove it for most of us:)

T5 are pretty bright and even a bad reflector will intensify them.

Remember that plants take time to adjust to DIFFERING c02 levels. If they are requiring high c02 now due to high light, it will take time to adjust to the water's c02 even if 'sufficient' as I think there is a large difference in c02 levels in water and in air.
 
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Tom Barr

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2x 39W T5 are plenty for any plants you might consider on a 40 Gallon 3ft/90cm tank.
3 if you feeling like you want to really garden more than most.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

daversa

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Hi,

I looked for quite a while and didn't see an answer to this. I plan on using EI on my new 21 gallon tank and I ordered all my fertilizers in liquid form. After reading the EI light thread, I got the impression that I need to dose every day if I have liquid ferts. Is that the case? If so, would i be better off just ordering some dry chemicals?

Thanks in advance,

-Dave
 

Gerryd

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Hi Dave,

Daily dosing will get you more control and more optimal levels and growth. Like feeding fish daily.

Liquid ferts do not have to be dosed daily if you dose for MORE THAN ONE DAY's worth each time.

So, if 10 ml of nutrient X is required daily you can dose 35 ml twice a week and theoretically provide the same amount.

Does this make sense?
 

daversa

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Gerryd;48483 said:
Hi Dave,

Daily dosing will get you more control and more optimal levels and growth. Like feeding fish daily.

Liquid ferts do not have to be dosed daily if you dose for MORE THAN ONE DAY's worth each time.

So, if 10 ml of nutrient X is required daily you can dose 35 ml twice a week and theoretically provide the same amount.

Does this make sense?


Gerry, thanks for your response! I think I gotcha :)

I was planning on using this dosage routine with liquid. I think Tom was talking about dry chemicals, but is it ok if I just use liquid instead?

10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KNO3 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change