This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. We are after as many aquarium plant images that we can get, doing so will assist us in completing the aquarium plant database.

    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
    Dismiss Notice

CO2 mist, reactors, and maybe why algae does not grow on healthy plants

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by Tom Barr, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,678
    Likes Received:
    686
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    Hypothesis:

    CO2 mist pulls up the "good" periphyton that protects against algae spores(at least some/certain species) and things you'd rather not grow on the plants. Extra cellular polymers(ECPs) are excreted by bacteria on these periphyton films on leaves, these can slough off naturally, reduce turbidity and enhance water clarity. Reducing mist (but not 100% reduction) can enhance clarity and perhaps preserves some/most of the good periphyton that acts as a protectorant to "bad" algae colonization.

    Unhealthy plant leaves, do not support a "good" periphyton community and too much CO2 mist might damage the periphyton a little bit. We still see good plant growth, but there's a ratty look to some plant leaves, detritus(likely the ECP's) hanging from them a little bit. This detritus is reduced and clarity is enhanced when there is less mist.

    So a mix of the of a little bit of mist with the improved water clarity seems to be ideal based on observations blending needle wheel and reactors together to minimize the mist entering the tank, but not having the reactor fill up with gas later in the day.

    The periphyton films may be what helps plants dominate in rich nutrients against algae, and to have healthy "good" periphyton.....you need healthy plants. This may suggets why healthy plants are able to protect against algae and define the system via the periphyton communities, rather than bottom up models like nutrients.
    O2 and leaching from the plant leaves(say healthy active growing plant leaves vs non healthy) may play a large role in defining these periphyton communities.


    More on periphyton:
    http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ss522
    http://cwam.ucdavis.edu/Volume_2/CWAM_II_4_Periphyton.pdf
    http://algae.fiu.edu/

    Testing methods:
    http://water.epa.gov/scitech/monitoring/rsl/bioassessment/ch06main.cfm
     
  2. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,319
    Likes Received:
    4
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    Very interesting. Does this include the CO2 mist that comes from regular ada-type diffusers? Gonna read the articles later this eve. Thanks for providing those links.
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,678
    Likes Received:
    686
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    Perhaps, but it's not nearly as intense or aggressive as a powerhead fed type of CO2 mist.
     
  4. Marcel G

    Marcel G Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    17
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    Sorry, Tom, but I don't get the point. Is this your theory or did you find it elsewhere. In the articles cited there is no word about "CO2 mist ... and/or periphyton that protect plants against "bad" algae colonization". The above cited articles are just dealing with periphyton studies in general ... I didn't find anything concerning "good periphyton" on leaves protecting plants against "bad algae".

    Also the definition of "periphyton" according to EPA is as follows: "Periphyton is a complex assemblage of algae, cyanobacteria, microinvertebrates, their secretions, and detritus attached to submerged surfaces". So I don't know what should I imagine under "good periphyton" ... are these some kinds of invisible "periphyton films" on the plant's leaves? And can you elaborate a little more the "extra cellular polymers" thing? English is not my native language, so I don't understand exactly what did you want to say by it.

    Thanks beforehand for your explanation.
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,678
    Likes Received:
    686
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    The articles are back ground for periphyton, eg what is it, and what role/s might they play in natural environments.

    CO2 mist is not a natural thing really. But in streams riffles, mist does occur, but little has been studied about it or looked at.
    The good vs bad periphyton communities is also just a hypothesis.

    There's no support in the articles above.

    They use good vs bad periphyton for stream management and pollution.
    This likely could be used to determine plant vs algae dominance in lakes if applied correctly and determined further.

    Diatom indexes are useful there, so it may be a good idea to look at for lakes.
    Which tend to mimic aquariums more than streams do.

    ECP's are common in marine systems and likely on periphyton films.
    Bacteria excrete this "sticky glue like stuff". I have not searched a huge data base for all this, just an idea.
    I am a bit more informed than I let on however.
     
  6. Yo-han

    Yo-han Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2011
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    If this layer is really protecting the plants from attaching algae to them. Does periphyton get released into the water and attached to other things, like instruments, glass and substrate? Because when my leave are algae free, the glass usually is as well and the other way around.
     
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,678
    Likes Received:
    686
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    Well, the plant leaves have a biotic response. The non living surfaces really do not except from algae eaters, microinvert fauna etc(same for plant leaves, but not enough to support our observations).
     
  8. puopg

    puopg Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    So if i can clarify on the OP. Are you saying that diffusion methods that send a mist of CO2 into the tank can potentially be negatively affecting plant health when the amount of mist is too high? Not sure if I read the OP correctly.
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,678
    Likes Received:
    686
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    Yes, it's not that bad however, but you can clean up the plants a bit by reducing the mist somewhat.
     
  10. puopg

    puopg Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    Thanks Tom. Very interesting information. So if this is the case, is the best method to diffusing CO2 through some kind of inline diffuser or dissolving the gas somewhere in the filtration system?
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,678
    Likes Received:
    686
    Local Time:
    2:49 AM
    Well, the NW and post reactor method seems to balance most of the issues well.

    Or you can use the scintered glass ADA diffusers+ light current, the cheaper knock offs seem to suck frankly, I've run many of them for a few years, only the ADA seemed to last a long time.
    The higher pressure atomic things seem good, but keeping them clean and running at optimal will sometimes prove a challenge.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice