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CO2 For Sanitizing Plants

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by Biollante, Feb 27, 2010.

  1. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi,

    Given the great Potassium permanganate, KMnO4 shortage of 2010, it is only natural the discussion hijack of Where to Get Plants, http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6831-where-to-get-plants?p=47203, should turn to alternatives.

    Our Dan of Philosophos of fame brought up CO2 gassing used with vivariums. The ever-effervescent C. Smith offered a link http://www.orchidboard.com/eliminate-terrarium-pests-with-co2, Dan had sent when the aforementioned C. Smith had some round worms show up in a dry start. C. Smith did not indicate if the method was tried or the outcome.

    The up and coming barbarossa4122 wondered about the use of club soda, carbonated water mainly interested in snail control.

    I am curious as to the experience people have had using CO2 for sanitizing plants. :confused:

    My principal reason for sanitizing plants is mainly the things we cannot see. I also wonder if CO2 is going to be effective against algae carried on the plants. :)

    Biollante
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Unworthy Efforts

    Hi,

    These are strictly my observations; I do not claim these to exhaustive or definitive research I am aware that no conclusions are to be drawn from my efforts. :eek:

    As it happens, I have (well had) a two-liter bottle of Safeway store brand Seltzer Water, which as luck would have it has as its sole ingredient, carbonated water. Further adding to my giddiness is that the fabric of the universe in its majesty allows even a worthless old gasbag to get 10 200-milliliter portions out of a 2-liter bottle. :D

    Fortunately, I purchased my Potassium permanganate, long before the great Potassium permanganate shortage of 2010. I have (had) an unopened package of Alum. ;)

    I also own several gallons distilled water.

    I made fresh solution of Potassium permanganate dip and Alum solution dip.

    I also am the proud owner of dozens of unemployed one-pint mason jars. (I use mason jars in lieu of flasks or beakers for many of my replications, unseemly I know, but cheap.)

    I will say some of the early results seem encouraging for team Seltzer. :)

    More tomorrow, er-ah, today.

    Biollante
     
  3. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Did you just say I'm gassy? :p
    I did not use this, as once I found out the worms were nothing more than a visual pest (until fish are introduced, then they're food) I decided they weren't worth the effort.
     
  4. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hmmm... Well...

    Hi,

    Something like that.

    Since we have a nasty nematode out here I introduce "good" nematodes that means I raise them. :eek:

    I am not big on killing things just because I do not understand them. One of the reasons I quarintine prior to sanitizing is to make sure I do not kill useful things. I inoculate many of my tanks with worms, mainly as tasty treats for some of the critters but also as a method of discouraging the nasties from getting a hold in the tank. There are a couple of really, really nasty nematodes out there. :gw

    Biollante
     
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Plants In Carbonated Water Pearl Like Crazy

    Hi,

    I had hoped for some experienced folk to jump in with their experience sanitizing with CO2. :eek:

    I have to admit it was interesting.

    I took some plants from a tank I use mainly to raise small pond snails and Xiphophorus maculates mainly as feeders the tank has good populations of friendly Nematodes, Rotifers and copepods. Luckily, I have some bacteria blooms, green water and infusoria going. :)

    I took some plants, some pond snails, a shot of green water, white water, infusoria and a 6mm Xiphophorus maculates.

    Plopped the lot into 200ml of Seltzer Water in a pint mason jar and watched the plants pearl like crazy. The snails rained down from the Rotala rotundifolia. It is amazing how many baby snails were in there.

    After 25-minutes, I rinsed the plants in distilled water then placed them into twice-filtered water from the original tank. The Xiphophorus maculates was dead, a quick look under the microscope seemed to indicate substantial kill of the microorganisms. The algae were apparently unaffected. I have cultured (before and after) we will see what grows. A quick rinse and the snails had what appears to be a 100% recovery. Still looking to see if the snail eggs were killed. It does not appear they were.

    Since it appeared the net effect of the soda water is the same as the Alka Seltzer as anesthetic and the soda water loses its fizz I am trying a different version.

    Later I will go into the methods, madness and a little speculation. :)

    Biollante
     
  6. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Out of curiosity, was it actual pearling or was it CO2 collecting on the plant? I know when I have outgassing in new water I get bubbles everywhere, glass, plants, rocks, fish.

    Do the bubbles just collect on the plant since you introduced new sites for the bubbles to coallesce or is this actual O2 pearling? I guess one way to tell might be to see if the bubbles are all over the place on the plant or if they're in the usual spots for pearling.

    -
    S

     
  7. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Appears To Be

    Hi S,

    I am not sure; it certainly appears to be pearling. :)


    I have been looking at dozens of these now and there seems to be a period of intense pearling. If I place the containers under 6700K shop lights ~120-umol, “normal” pearling activity continues for a while after the fizz of the soda water has left.

    The tanks these plants come out of are heavily planted, lots of floating plants (Rotala rotundifolia, mainly), inert substrate, EI dosing, low light 6700K, T-12 shop lights, ~100-umol surface,
     
  8. csmith

    csmith Guest

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    Any follow up here?
     
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Soda Water, Hmmm

    Hi,

    Additional disclaimer, just observation, no claim of great science, no attempt to find the Black Swan.

    This turned out to be fascinating (advantage of not having a brain), things got totally out of control, I have run hundreds packets.

    The question that started this was about club soda. Seltzer I had water in bottled form and I am able to make soda water in my home so that is what I used. :)

    Soda water is effective for snail removal. :gw
    Snails drop quickly, critters generally are in stage 3 or 4 anesthesia in well under four minutes, fish, copepods, rotifers, zooplankton, generally. Rinsing the plants after soaking 7-15 minutes the results were good. However, it does not destroy snail eggs; it did nothing to stop any alga.

    • I recommend 15-minute dip followed by a through rinse. The plants can spend days in the soda water with little ill affect, the plants can be infested once again as the snails and yeast and protozoa’s wake up.
    Generally, the snails, protozoa, yeasts and so on survive.

    • To avoid snails, it is necessary quarantine the plants for at least seven more days and dip the plants again, to be sure at least one more week and another dip is required.
    • I had approximately five percent of the packets produce snails after the second dip; I had none after the third dip.
    I was a little surprised at the outcomes and more by the lack of information, seems everyone just repeats what everyone else says. :confused:

    Even when I included bleach, it turned out that Potassium permanganate was the most effective and had done the least damage. I tried various strengths of the various sanitizing agents.


    • I found Alum to be effective though a little harsher than I had thought that may be due in part to the considerably longer “dip” times required.


    • I found Hydrogen Peroxide (Hydrogen Dioxide?), H2O2, 3% at 3-4-ml/l amazingly effective.


    • I found simply rinsing under chlorinated tap water, especially for the tougher plants, quite effective, more so when accompanied by gentle massaging.

    Overall, I found distilled water to be the most effective post dip rinse. By the way, a fifteen-minute dip in distilled water is better than nothing.

    Doing anything is better than doing nothing.


    • I also found spraying the soil in dry starts, potted or container plants with soda water or PP and H2O2 sanitizing solutions amazingly effective for the control of bugs, Cyanobacteria and some fungus (especially PP and H2O2).
    • I am currently experimenting, er, rather messing around with fungus, molds and some cyanobacteria, I have ordered a number of strains, the first have just arrived and I am culturing them to check the effectiveness.
    Somewhere along the way, I will put my notes together in some semi-coherent form and blog it. :cool:

    I have been surprised by the lack of interest in this subject.

    Biollante
     
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