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Co2 diffusion through needle wheel pump

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by ua hua, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. ua hua

    ua hua Guru Class Expert

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    Who on here uses a needle wheel pump as their co2 diffusion method?
    And how do you run it?

    Do you run the pump outlet straight to the tank?

    If you have a sump do you run the needle wheel output back into the sump aimed at another return pumps inlet?

    The situation I'm at right now is I was running my return pump which is a Mag drive 7 w/ fractioning impeller through an Aqua medic 1000 dual venturi method. The reactor never built up any false gas in over a week running this pump so the venturi loop to the pump was never needed. The problem was I was losing too much flow to the AM reactor so the overflow u-tube kept getting an air pocket in it so I knew I wasn't getting enough flow from the return pump.

    I took the reactor out of the equation and just ran the co2 through the needle wheel pump to the tank. The flow is right where it needs to be now and no air pocket in the u-tube in 2 days.

    I didn't really want the micro bubbles in the tank but I have to run it this way for awhile and see. It reminds me off the look of my old reef tank. I think I will likely end up running another pump in the sump through the reactor and using the Mag for the return pump. I just don't know what pump to use through the reactor. Would a mag 5 or smaller work?

    So if you have the micro bubble look do you ever get used to it? I'm so used to my water being crystal clear with a freshwater tank.

    I'm curious to hear how others run their needle wheel co2 diffusion.
     
  2. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    NW pump is now in sump. Outlet just goes into the sump pool area and then picked up by the main sump pump and back to tank. Fairly certain Tom follows the same basic pattern.

    When they were in the tank, the nozzle is simply pointed where you want it to go :)
     
  3. ua hua

    ua hua Guru Class Expert

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    Thank you for the reply.
    Does that eliminate the majority of thre micro bubbles that enter the tank? I'm worried that running the needle wheel pump that I have would be too much flow inside the sump. I still have the AM1000 so may just buy a Mag5 to run through the reactor.
     
  4. mike

    mike Guru Class Expert

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    Gerry,

    So are you saying your NW pump, the one being fed co2 is NOT returning water to your display tank but rather it directs all the micro bubbles into the sump tank where a second pump returns the water? I take it you get no micro bubbles in the display tank is that correct? Would you say there is more co2 lost this way than if the return was directed into the display tank.

    Also, what type of NW pump are you using?

    Mike
     
    #4 mike, Sep 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2012
  5. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Yes, that is what I am saying :) Out of site and the distribution is better as the main pump has outlets on both ends of the tank. And the pump is stronger, so it gets pushed into the tank further. The extra time in the lines will only help dissolve the c02.

    That would be incorrect. There is a very visible mist of fine bubbles coming from both outlets. More visible up close but you can see it clearly. Clears up in a few mins when c02 is off. I don't care for it personally, but the c02 goes off approx 90 mins after I get home, so by the time cats and I are fed, etc. C02 is off and time to watch the fish!

    I would agree with that. Tom thinks that as much as 90% of the c02 is wasted anyway...It seems to work best so far for my tank than previous attempts with two in tank models, or an external nw, or an atomizer.
     
    #5 Gerryd, Sep 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2012
  6. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    You are quite welcome... No it does not eliminate the mist. See my previous reply to Mike for this info :)

    I am using either a rio 1000 or 1000 gph model in my sump. My sump cannot be more than 20-30 gallons max and most likely less. And the portion for the pumps is only a small section of the sump itself. A NW loses a good deal of flow anyway compared to a normal impeller, at least IME. So is less than you may think. But you need to size the NW pump to the application or size of the tank.

    What size tank do you have? I used an AM1000 on a 180 but was not really efficient enough for that size tank...Is what started me on this forum 5-6 years ago in the first place...How to use c02 with overflows and a wet/dry :)

    That said, it will work fine on many smaller size tanks. The big issue is the small 5/8 inlet/outlet. You can only flow so much water into them. I used a mag 500 on mine as well.
     
  7. ua hua

    ua hua Guru Class Expert

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    My tank is 90gal. And the sump is not very big so the mag 7 I'm afraid would be blowing water all over in the sump. I wouldn't mind a few micro bubbles in the tank as right now I can see how good the flow is but it reminds me too much of my days in the saltwater side of the hobby. Here is a few pics of my sump.



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    You could simply direct the water from the NW into a 3" Tube or a water filter DIY modification and hang this outside the limited space inside the sump area. This should catch most of the mist bubbles and then send the water from there, right back into the return pump suction side.

    I do this for some tanks.

    I've been meaning to do more of it to my 70 Gal, and 120, 180, but lazy, ya know??
     
  9. ua hua

    ua hua Guru Class Expert

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    There is the AM1000 crammed behind the sump. It's still in there and plumbed if I decide to buy another pump and run it through the reactor. I'm afraid that with the limited space in my sump that 2 mag pumps they will heat up the water too much. Is there a way to remove the bio balls from the reactor and use it as a bubble collector? It's all the bio balls and the small barbed fittings on this reactor that slow down the flow. I'm just going to let it run the way it is now with the return from the needle wheel pump into the main tank for my own curiousity. I'm curious to how the plants will react any differently than running a reactor.
     
  10. mike

    mike Guru Class Expert

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    You both have got me thinking about my co2 diffusion.

    ua hua, you can use a small Rio 800 with nw impeller. They are 210 gph and they fit in the palm of your hand. I have one in a 33 g tank and it does a good job chopping the bubbles. A 1/2 tube can fit over the outlet and you can feed it about 1 inch into your foam block on the return pump. They only cost about $25.

    I'm thinking of trying that on my 125g tank now.

    Thank you ua hua and Gerry for stimulating the mind.

    Mike
     
    #10 mike, Sep 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2012
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    AM1000's can be unscrewed at the top, you just twist good and the 3/8" cap will come off and you can slowly remove the bioballs one at a time.
    But there's no real way to fix the 3/8" in/out flows. You'd need to set up a Water filter DIY mod and use say 3/4" PVC for the return post Mag drive.
    30$ etc........hangs outside the sump etc or you could mount to the ceiling inside the cabinet there.
     
  12. ua hua

    ua hua Guru Class Expert

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    So I found an extra pump in my shed with all my pond equipment so I hooked it up to the reactor and just ran the return from the reactor back to the sump. I couldn't stand all the micro bubbles in the main tank so will go back to running the reactor dual venturi method with the bleed valve hooked up to the venturi on the mag 7 pump in case the 300gph pump on the reactor doesn't have enough flow and I end up with false gas in the reactor. I don't think I would have ever been able to get used to the micro bubbles in the main tank. If it was a reef tank then ok but to me a freshwater tank should be crystal clear at least that is what I'm used to. I may try the misting again in the future but for now no more seltzer water for me.
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Another simple method is to use say 15 ft of 3/4" or 1" tubing and run the mist into that. If you mount it on the top ceiling under the cabinet, then have the out flow feed back into sump return, or use it as the sump return.........
     
  14. jart

    jart Junior Poster

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    Just wondering if smaller NW pumps, like the one that Mike mentioned above, can deal with the higher bps of CO2 that might be required on a larger tank (keeping in mind it would just be kept in the sump and not used as the return).

    Great thread; I missed this one earlier.
     
  15. fleuramore

    fleuramore Member

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    Is there a way to use a NW pump in the display tank itself?
     
  16. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Sure, but then you have to hide it inside the tank, plus ensure it is distributed evenly. Whatever the main config with the sump is, the c02 will follow it. And no need for the over the wall power cord and c02 tubing either.

    Trust me I had TWO rio 1k NW in my 220 at one time and they are hard to hide :) When I covered them in plants, the mass was so large that it took up even more space inside the tank.
     
    #16 Gerryd, Oct 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2012
  17. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    As long as they are sized to the task at hand:) I would not expect a rio 800 to supply a 450 gal tank.

    I would think a pump could be overwhelmed with bubble rate and simply waste more if undersized....
     
  18. ua hua

    ua hua Guru Class Expert

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    The pump I was using to feed my reactor wasn't handling the bubble count and ended up building up false gas by the end of the day so I bought another mag 7 to use as my main return pump and hooked up the mag 7 with fractioning impeller to the reactor using the dual venturi method. The return to the reactor flows back into my sump and is pointed at the inlet of the other mag 7. No more micro bubbles in the tank which is what I was trying to avoid. I was worried about having two mag drives in my sump heating the water up too much but haven't noticed any change in tank temp. I'm still coming up with ideas to build a different reactor/bubble collector, so that will be a winter project along with the dual stage regulator that I'm in the process of building. I don't know if one way of diffusion is any better than the other but I must say that while running the needle wheel pump straight into the tank I could see exactly where the flow of the mist was going and moved around the filter outlets to get the best flow pattern, I just couldn't stand all the bubbles. If it was a reef tank then I could deal with it because that is what I grew accustomed to but to me a freshwater tank should be as clear as possible other than the pearling you get from the plants.
     
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