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Chelating Micro ferts with EDTA

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by Petex, Dec 25, 2013.

  1. Petex

    Petex Member

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    hi,
    I have some sulfate + EDTA here and want to mix my own traces.
    I am just struggling about the right amounts.
    Will EDTA be added 1:1 to mol?

    So for (1g example)
    1g CuSO4*5H2O [0.0040 Mol] + 1.43g EDTA
    1g MnSO4*H2O [0.0059 Mol] + 2,1g EDTA
    1g ZnSO4*7H2O [0.0035 Mol] + 1.25g EDTA
    Did this make sense, or will be for some metals any other ratios?

    And for iron w. citric acid chelated :
    1g FeSO4 · 7 H2O , how much C6H8O7 (citric acid) or C6H5Na3O7 · 2H2O (sodium citrat dihydrat)?

    thx peter
     
    #1 Petex, Dec 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2013
  2. Petex

    Petex Member

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    hi,
    noone, no chemical experts?
    Where is Biolante :D - isn´t he anymore online in this forum? :confused:
     
  3. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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  4. Petex

    Petex Member

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    hi Tug,
    I know this tread, the problem I still have with this are the EDTA amounts.

    For example this:
    Iron (II) sulfate hepta-hydrate version, a lot less EDTA.
    EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid-------------------------------------------382-grams
    MgSO4●7H2O, Magnesium sulfate hepta-hydrate, Epsom salt, ------------152-grams
    FeSO4●7 H2O, Iron (II) sulfate hepta-hydrate, ---------------------------------------349-grams
    MnSO4●5 H2O, Manganese sulfate penta-hydrate ----------------------------- 89-grams
    ZnSO4●7 H2O, Zinc sulfate hepta-hydrate----------------------------------------- 18-grams
    H3BO3, Boric acid-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5-grams
    CuSO4●5H2O, Copper sulfate penta-hydrate (blue)------------------------------ 4-grams
    H2MoO4, Molybdic acid or dihydroxidodioxidomolybdenum------------------ 1-gram

    If I use a calculator (Mn, B & Mo not be chelated), I end up at other EDTA grams and this confuses me:
    [​IMG]
    The EDTA I have is C10H16N2O8*2H20 , are there perhaps different kinds off EDTA formulas?
     
    #4 Petex, Dec 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2013
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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  6. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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  7. Petex

    Petex Member

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    If I unterstand this right - the calculator tool is doing something wrong with iron :( and it should look like this:
    24,9g FeSO4●7 H2O -----> 26,2g EDTA

    What about Zn+cu+Mn, it would be importand to know how to chelate (Cu / Zn ) right.
    Unfortunatly, the paper didnt tell us this. :confused:

    The other thing I don´t understand for how much liters should be bioloantes solution ??
    If you mix 382gramm Ironsulfate, 18g Zinc or whatever so even in a 5L watercanister, 1ml would add pretty much in a 50L tank.
     
    #7 Petex, Dec 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2013
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    The main metal of concern is Fe, the other metals can exists pretty well WITHOUT chelation.
    So you can make a solution with the other metals and nutrients, then a separate one with Fe alone. ADA, Dupla both did that. Tropica mixes 2 different chelators and an all in one.
    Both approaches work well.
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    The main metal of concern is Fe, the other metals can exists pretty well WITHOUT chelation.
    So you can make a solution with the other metals and nutrients, then a separate one with Fe alone. ADA, Dupla both did that. Tropica mixes 2 different chelators and an all in one.
    Both approaches work well.
     
  10. Petex

    Petex Member

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    Did Po4 not react with other metals, too?

    Well however, are there any closer informations around the plant uptake about traces (like we know about Iron, nitrate, Phosphate and so on) ?
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Not so much, Fe is a special case.

    You can sort of get an idea based on the % plant tissue dry weight composition for uptake.
    But...........this does not imply that you need that same or even close the same similar ratio in the water.
    Fe for example is often 10-^15 less than what is in plant tissue.

    Plants are pretty good at getting it in low concentrations in the environment and dealing with limitations, same with PO4.
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Not so much, Fe is a special case.

    You can sort of get an idea based on the % plant tissue dry weight composition for uptake.
    But...........this does not imply that you need that same or even close the same similar ratio in the water.
    Fe for example is often 10-^15 less than what is in plant tissue.

    Plants are pretty good at getting it in low concentrations in the environment and dealing with limitations, same with PO4.
     
  13. Petex

    Petex Member

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    I have here Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn, B, Mo , (Mg/K)
    And thats what also the Tropica adds.

    Well, if I compare Tropicas product with some other fertilisers, it seems that other fertilisers also add some other traces.
    (like Co, Ni, Li, Va and so on)
    There are also some discussions about Ni and that it may be importand for Urease / Nitrogen transfer, but I see very different Ni concentration depending on the fertiliser brands. Same for Co and so on.
    So did this mean, the companies also do not really exactly know what is necessary for aquatic plants and what not?
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Co, Ni, etc, there's some of that trace amount sin just about everything relative to the demand from plants, I'd not even bother with it.

    They(aquatic plant/aquarium companies) do not know what ratio or amounts are used unless they do dry weight analysis and relative growth rates.
    I've never seen any aquarium company EVER do this.

    I've done it. It's a PITA for just say N and P alone.
    No way they will do it for every trace, there's not enough fiscal rational for them to do it.
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Co, Ni, etc, there's some of that trace amount sin just about everything relative to the demand from plants, I'd not even bother with it.

    They(aquatic plant/aquarium companies) do not know what ratio or amounts are used unless they do dry weight analysis and relative growth rates.
    I've never seen any aquarium company EVER do this.

    I've done it. It's a PITA for just say N and P alone.
    No way they will do it for every trace, there's not enough fiscal rational for them to do it.
     
  16. Petex

    Petex Member

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    hmm, very interesting - so this means they just sale us "still anything" that isn´t really "bulletproofed" (for perfect plant grow) :(

    So, what about the Fe chelators?
    I know that EDTA is up to PH6 stable,
    HEEDTA - PH7
    DTPA 7,5
    EDDHA - PH10
    Well, but what are the other advantages or disadvantages?
    Why did fertilisers like TMG contain DTPA and HEEDTA Iron? (and not only DTPA or just only EDDHA)
     
  17. Petex

    Petex Member

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    This may be right, but there is study that compares submersed vs. emersed (water)plants. There were some differences between the Fe/Mn uptake ratios and such like zn/cu. Well unfortunatly about, B and Mb uptake I just found nothing.

    About chelators I found few comments like this:"FE-HEEDTA is a poor iron source at all pH levels because of fixation and, at high pH, substitution of calcium for iron."
    There was also an old Seachem posting about gluconate vs. EDTA:
    http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/gluconate.html
    It contains some interesting statements: "The paradox, simply stated, is that EDTA can remove nutrients from solution and cause deficiency, while at the same time it can provide Fe to the plants."

    Perhaps noone mixes here his own fertiliser, but seems few ppl. on other forums do so & that they prefer to do mixes off several FE chelators and this sounds somehow smarter. It still opens again the question, what chelators should be used more and what chelators should be used less.
    Well however, I am currently also using a chelator mixture. The plants show now very vivid colours compared too my old Vimi fertiliser. (my coloratas were still looking greenish-brown before: http://www.nanoplants.de/test/colorata-x.jpg )
    As side effect, the own mixture also tinted the water a little bit (seems to have somehow a 9XXXk pinkish bulb effect on red plants)
    So I am now considering to reduce the part from those chelators who tinted the water or if I should be the things like they are or perhaps giving Seachem Purigen as addition a try.
     
    #17 Petex, Feb 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2014
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