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Check this: INTRODUCTION TO FERTILIZING AND ALGAE CONTROL by Christian Rubilar

Discussion in 'Algae Control' started by dutchy, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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  2. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Same type of thing as PMDD, you add plenty of other nutrients until you get GSA.
    This typically gets rid of most species of algae and it takes several weeks, months to do.

    Then you go back to dosing as normal I guess or tweak thing still the algae is all gone other than GSA which I hate personally.
    I had a debate with the guy, could not get him to understand even the basic tenants of horticulture. No mechanisms as to why and why other folks do not have the same results or why things like indirect causes are at play. Nor what makes the most logic sense.
    If you limit PO4 strongly it obviously will reduce demand for every other nutrients, CO2 and light..
    This is because by it's very definition, limiting a nutrient strongly like PO4, will decrease the rates of growth of the plants. .
    Less growth= less demand for CO2.
    It's still the "tail wagging the dog" and does not address the very basis tenants of horticulture.

    I do not think he understood that even a little bit. He does understand that higher levels ppm's etc are not issues and testing presents problems for many. It's sort of EI non limiting nutrients with PO4 limitation as the goal for indirect algae control via reduced plant growth.
    He did not seem t get that relationship.

    I tried a few times and when it was apparent I was talking to zealot.......no sense in discussing it further.

    Focus on using less light if........ the goal is reduce algae. This places less demand and it a much more logical long term method. Generally CO2 management is the issue, sometimes not dosing enough.He is correct in not worrying about NO3 and other dosing methods at high levels, but the folks that are cured of algae this way, only have JUST NOW FOUND OUT ABOUT PMDD DOSING WHICH WAS KNOWN BACK IN 1995. It's a version of that same approach to algae control, but with less worry about specific NO3/K+, etc.

    In fact, the level of PO4 limitation of the plants is even stronger.

    I think he assumes it's a direct relationship and cannot see past it.
    But...many like he, also see it as a way to deal with their algae issues and they do not care if it's band aid and does not address the root plant growth problem(which has little to do with algae).

    Sort of like adding copper, and various other concoctions to kill algae.
    The issue, and Amano is no different, nor are the folks at Tropica .....nor myself...........is much more about the real goal, which is plant growth. Healthy plant growth.
    All 3 very different approaches all independently and over long time frames all come to similar conclusions and it has virtually nothing to do with algae.

    Why might that be?
    What things do each suggest?

    Low light, good CO2, and good consistent care, water changes etc.

    The algae are not really being limited, it's the plant's rate of growth that's been reduced via PO4 limitation. Can it get rid of some folk's algae indirectly?
    Sure, but using less light will do much better and has.........just because it can work for some, does not mean it's a long term solution nor focuses of a root issue in management.

    Hopefully that clarifies.

    I think this guy thinks he is saving the world from the evils of algae somehow, but PO4 limitation for algae control predates him by well over a decade.
    I really do not focus on algae directly, I focus on good plant growth, there's a huge difference there.

    Both in aquariums, in rich water column, in rich sediments, in natural systems, the evidence is fairly clear about plants and algae.

    where's my algae if this method works so well?
    How am I able to cure every species of algae and have awesome growth from every 300-400 species of plant as well as ADA or Tropica?

    Luck?

    I can do the method and have, many did, it was called PMDD, quite popular back in the 1990's and into 2000's.
    Rewording it, or calling it PPS or some other name does not change the fact that's mechanism is still the same principle.

    What bothers me is that even when told and explained to them, they ignore it and poo poo you.
    That's not logic or critical thinking, that's Crazy and ego talking. Then they run around trying to sell their belief based on correlation.
    You always will get a few thinking "me too". Tell folks what they want to believe, do no ask them to honestly and critically question things/observations etc.

    So he's got some things right, but has a ways to go in really understanding what all is going on with plants and algae.
    So it can be like the classic, 'has enough knowledge to do damage, but not enough to realize the bigger picture".

    Maybe he'll figure it out, but it'll take some personal questioning and growth to do so.
    I actually like the guy otherwise.

    As far as algae, I make little mention of it in EI dosing, only that excess etc does not induce algae.
    EI is based on growing plants, not avoiding algae.

    Unless you measure light and CO2 well, you cannot conclude anything about nutrients.........or results/observations.
    Neither he nor Edward did this worth crap.

    Light I can measure and it explains a lot of the issues folks have with poor plant growth and algae.
    CO2 is even trickier.....but they know everything about both huh?

    A test needs a control, without one........and good testing to see the other relevant parameters, like CO2 and light...you really cannot say much. These folks want to try and say more than than they really can conclude.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  3. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Not too far in yet, but the base assumptions put forth are rather fiddly and specific.

    Not likely to happen in my tanks, but I'm still going through. I can see a complete explosion of algae in the works though until all the nutrients deplete. The water requirements are also very exacting and not very forgiving when it comes to what you are "allowed" to start with. I'll have to keep digging through it but the gist of it seems to be...

    -High light with some very specific light "quality" recommendations
    -High CO2, determined by stressing your shrimp until they act "wierd" and then back off a bit and make sure you have enough flow.
    -Dose your KNO3 and let the phosphates drop until you get GSA and then add the phosphate back to deal with that.
    -If you have high KNO3 or Phosphates in the water you probably can't use this method.

    I still have to read what he's up to for micros and how to deal with specific algaes and such. Good find though. Always interested in checking out other methods.

    -
    S
     
  4. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    What a coincidence, I read his method just a few days ago, although it's been
    around quite long.

    Descriptions of his method are in other language and scattered. But from
    what I've read, I think it's like PMDD without test kits.
     
  5. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Generally seems to be. The high light requirements throw me a bit. I'm nowhere near where he suggests for lighting, nor do I want to be though.

    *shrug* EI seems to work well enough for my purposes and opening things up a bit for better flow has generally worked out best for me so far.

    -
    S
     
  6. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Honestly, if I hadn't been hearing about this method all week long over at APC, I would've thought this were an April Fools joke.

    The method admits to requiring harder work than we already do with EI, but doesn't claim any better results.

    Tom, after seeing it I would've thought your debate with Christian Rubilar last year might have killed the concept as it is, or encouraged him to go back to the drawing board and study things a little harder. Instead people using the method seem to be linking to that thread trying to give the concept support by the association of debating the entire thing with you. "Teach the Controversy" and such.

    Anyhow, all that aside I think he should focus on morphology. He's already spent plenty of time pushing nutrients and light in various directions, he might as well take his observations from how the plants react and expand on them.
     
    #6 Philosophos, Apr 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2010
  7. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    It's interesting to read but even I can shoot holes in this article. the way the article is made makes people run to the shop to get more lights without thinking further. The other thing is that het says to dose more and more until you get some algae and then stop. But as plants grow in space and time todays dosage is tomorrows deficiency.

    For me....I chose a method and learned it well. Although I might try his method on my quarantaine tank just to find out where it goes wrong.

    regards,
    dutchy.
     
  8. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    The not going back to adjust the dosing as things fill in was pretty glaring to me as well, but maybe it's just an assumption on his part that you'd do so anyway? Afterall, you'd eventually be deficient in something and have to run one of the "protocols" again to fix it so that basically forces you to adjust your dosing at some point.

    I had also thought the green water bloom was caused by NH4 in the water anyway, so I'm not sure why he doesn't know what caused it. Still, interesting to see different methods in use. Not something I'm going to do though.

    -
    S
     
  9. hani

    hani Lifetime Charter Member
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    Interesting article to read, when i look at its like the PPMD, WHATS really interesting is tying each type of algae to a specific nutrient, which i havent seen anywhere before. am not sure what the other think about it
     
  10. barbarossa4122

    barbarossa4122 Guru Class Expert

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    Too complicated, for me anyway. I am doing EI , sometimes overdose a little and all I know is that I do not have any algae.
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think high light is part of the general people' issue to begin with do not you think so???
    If that is resolved and not forced..then the ret of the management becomes far easier.
    ADA, Tropica, myself, we all suggest this and have independently of one another.
    This is pretty strong consensus if you ask me.

    Gassing shrimp or fish is something I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED NOR EVER SHALL. I refer to this as simply unethical stressing of the livestock. There's better ways to do this visually, slowly, but better without causing harm to livestock.
    Some folks do not care, I do.
    Of course I'm an aquarist 1st, then a planted horticutluralist.
    So livestock issues come first.

    You are just shifting one problem for another until you have GSA and then add PO4.
    It's a round about way, but can work for some cases.
    I do not argue with that aspect, but if it's a CO2, the issue will come back later.

    Then you have repeat this all over again........

    You have to address the root.
    The new hobbyists and their own assumptions should not be avoided just to solve the issue.
    They should learn about why and what are the root issues.

    All you have to do is read PMDD and algae control from Paul and Kevin, this is very very similar.
    Both use low limiting PO4 to indirectly influence plant growth rates and decrease them, this in turn changes the algae issues to GSA.

    PPS, this method and PMDD all have GSA issues, this can be corrected by adding more PO4.
    I guess they all figured out to dose PO4 also on their own?

    Me no think so.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Why waste all that light and make life tougher to grow when ADA, Tropica and myself seem to be able to do it with less than 1/2 that intensity and energy use?

    Bad management, that's the real issue, not the methods or dosign or ppm's of any nutrient.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    He is not a bad person etc, the fools that hop in and me too, well..........they are not doing anyone a favor.........
    I think maybe with time, he'll come around and see some wisdom, but wisdom is earned and done through doing.

    He's got a ways to go and manipulation of light and it's measure, alogn with some really critical CO2 measuring to do, as well as more comaprative methods, but usign algae as bioindicators as a method to correct things has been around a long long time.
    I was among the first to start getting at some root causes based on specific species.

    He used a lot of that information to develop this.

    I guess I know enough to realize I know very little overall, whereas many are really excited to learn a little, but think they know a lot more than they really do. Hopefully they come around and become more careful in their assumptions.
    It's not an easy path for many. I applaud his efforts to help others. But there's a lot of testing still to go on hois part, particulraly with light.
    Hopefully he'll buy a light meter and start working with that.

    Why limit PO4, when you can limit light?
    It's much more stable than any nutrient or gas.

    Seems to be the best and most logical Management.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    This is a good attitude, learn each method and see what is similar and different from each.
    I think you learn more about the trade offs, and your, as well as other's folks habits this way.
    I think doing PMDD was excellent for many, adding PO4to that really made EI take off, since it was the last missing nutrient ot increase growth of plants.

    What we do not know much about from many, are: CO2 and light.

    Nutrients, dosing, algae etc, much is meaningless with out some idea for comparing tanks with CO2/light.
    Most methods for dosing are not really that much different.

    Some have more in the sediment(ADA, Worm castings etc), soem more rich in the water column (EI), some learner, (PMMD/PPS) etc.
    Some suggets balancing N:p ratios but simply add more of a limiting nutrient, like the Dutch Charles Redfield ratio web site.

    That gent still has never responded to several points I've made about that.

    NBut by trying different things, you can see and falsify some assumptions toi these methods or tentatively accept some.
    Then you compare them with what is known and what others have in terms of ppm's etc, or PAR etc.........

    This gives a good understanding.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  15. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, it was collected from what I've stated and speculated over the years. It's a bit round about vs a direct solution to each species species.
    This is more practical for many hobbyists than experimental.
    Many do not want to do that, so this goes around that process and does GSA strongly.

    So does PMDD, but Paul/Kevin used very low light comapred to today's averages.
    Few have seen this glaring point(PPS/this method etc).

    That's one reason why it works very well in the 1990's.

    Once we had lots of light..........then thigns got nastier.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I'd not dimiss it, the process teaches folks some good things.
    Testing does as well, but might be outside the general management you want to do.

    Many just want a nice planted garden and whatever gets them there is good enough for them.
    Practicality is important to many. If you are deseparate .....well you will try most anything.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. hani

    hani Lifetime Charter Member
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    i did have issues with GSA, did not matter how much CO2, po4 i added (was up to 10ppm PO4 /lamotte smart2) it kept comming back on the new leaves, the only thing made a diffrance was reducing the light, It went away in 2 weeks. if am gon try to induce evry algae then kill it with diffrent method (excel, H2O2,...), am not sure what plants will be left in a new tank.
    the iron and BBA is new to me, but its something i will keep in mind if i start having problem.
     
  18. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    I don't think he's a bad person either. I just find his ideas poorly thought out, which is a place everyone has been. My annoyance is with how I've seen it treated so far; it seems people in a few places are accepting it without catching on that it's founded on concepts we've already moved on from, and I think of the time that will be wasted refuting it or the tanks held back by using out-of-date methods. I do wish that he'd researched a little better before releasing it as a method, but perhaps there's a reason I'm not seeing.

    I agree with the rest of what you said. Observing algae is a tangled mess that I remember hanging around with others in, and the fact that nobody really used controls while doing it.

    Anyhow, I won't keep you busy with rambling. I'm sure you've been busy with the whole disertation thing coming up. Any chance we can get a peak once all is said and done?
     
  19. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    The Fe and BBA is an old myth.......goes back to PMDD ad few others.

    I add lots, clearly do not have BBA issues.
    Hard to suggets any relationshipthere.

    Trying to actively induce certain species of algae on urpose is a good idea if learning, testing is your interest.
    Few actually bother to do it.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  20. TheKillHaa

    TheKillHaa Prolific Poster

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    i've been on this for years.
    im moderator of drpez where MDC develops, dealing with that thread all this time. MDC method has +100,000 reads on this forum, but i close it at +200 answers some years ago because of rules of the page, but easily could be raching thousends replies as today.
    However im the EI pro, but Christian is his own method pro. (mdc)

    we almost never get an agreement,.. he is a very nice guy, but BELIEVES his method overall, this determination made our ways very different, im as moderator, and he as colaborator, i dont argue with him, but i can't understand his method. he used to be the best plant seller in Argentina; the most well known of his country years ago.

    But even Tom couldnt get him in accordance with the discussion on drpez one year ago.. i knew early that he will be bitting nuts there: a biologist vs a lawyer is not fair in a discussion, lol.

    MDC was developed with many people, many peoples ensures it works, many people use it nowadays and is becoming very popular. many i dont know what his tanks looks like, but the method is making noise all around world, and has begint to be translated to several languages so far...

    but i cant understand why. after following EI, & Liebig Law with my 5000 liters heavily planted for years, under california sun, also on high and low light indoors, co2 and with out it, with over 300 spp,... i cant undestand: how looking for an algae, will give me a better planted tank.. and having better results that IE methods gives me.

    should i try? i dont know, but i havent seen a better acuarium or better plant from this method that from EI. so far...

    TheKillHaa.
     
    #20 TheKillHaa, Apr 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2010
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