Can I pick your brains? Why is this working?

[lljdma06]

Hi everybody! I've got a macro-algae/seagrass/coral/biotope project in the works here, but before I started doing that, I did and still do planted tanks. My latest scape is a bit of an enigma to me and I'd love to know the "why" of it. Some details.

Tank: ADA 63l 60cm x 30cm x 35cm, tank volume ~15-17g
Lighting: 2x 24W T5 HO
Substrate: ADA Amazonia aqua soil
Filtration: Two Aquaclear 50s, and two Rio 50s powerheads

I won this tank in an auction at the AGA convention... Yep, this is the runner up from the convention. Was a great deal. I can't afford ADA otherwise.

I tried to maintain the scape using CO2 injection and ferts (TPN+) but I couldn't. So I rescaped the tank in December and ditched the CO2 on a gut feeling. Still dosed ferts in the beginning (TPN+). Well, this is what I ended up with. People thought I was just going to get a lot of algae, but...

As you can see, it hasn't been the epic fail that some people were predicting it would be. The most I get is a couple of spots of green spot algae on the class and anubias and like one tuft of BBA on a bolbitis leaf, which I remove. Not really enough for me to be worried. The tank has been running senza CO2 since December. I've been lazy at times with this system. I went away for a month to NYC (May) and came back with an overgrown tank, but not an algae mess. In the initial phase of it's setup I was doing big waterchanges every other day and just really keeping the tank clean. It wasn't dirty, but I wanted to keep it clean. It's tapered off significantly. I can go a month, but my crypts don't like that. They do better if I do weekly waterchanges. I dosed TPN+ in the beginning, but again, that's tapered off too, especially after I added the livestock.

I've done some minor tweakings and this is what the tank currently looks like. I removed the wall for my trip to NYC in May and reattached it when I returned. Swapped the moss on the wood for Pelia.

I'm just curious as to why it's working. I've got some newbies in my forum who are attracted to this type of setup and I don't want to steer them down the wrong path by recommending it. Hahaha, have to do a waterchange today. I don't know, I seem to get really lucky with non-CO2 systems in Miami. Do I have me some magic water? If you have any questions about the system, feel free to ask. I just grow plants, but I'm not very smart about the "why" of things. Thanks for reading.

Liz

 

[Tom Barr]

Plants still grow, they just grow slower.

I'm not sure why more folks do not try to do a non CO2 method.

 

[lljdma06]

Plants still grow, they just grow slower.

I'm not sure why more folks do not try to do a non CO2 method.

I don't know why either. It's been a pretty simple scape to maintain and the Madagascar was a nice bonus. So why do you think people expected this tank to fail? I mean my gut iinstinct and my experience told me that I wouldn't, but it's hard to explain to a newbie or to a person who is more CO2/fast growth oriented "my gut".

Thanks.

 

[Tom Barr]

Bad CO2 management is more the reason why folks fail, the % with a correctly set up non CO2 method has a higher % of success statistically.
Too much light is a problem for most plant folks, and a few go the other way and do not think plants need hardly any light also.

As many say they want less growth and care, no water changes etc.........non CO2 meets those goals quite well.

 

[lljdma06]

Bad CO2 management is more the reason why folks fail, the % with a correctly set up non CO2 method has a higher % of success statistically.
Too much light is a problem for most plant folks, and a few go the other way and do not think plants need hardly any light also.

As many say they want less growth and care, no water changes etc.........non CO2 meets those goals quite well.

But Tom, I do regular waterchanges in this tank, and that's not typical in a non CO2 setup. I know this because I typically say the same thing you just said above when recommending non CO2 to other hobbiests. But when I try to do the same thing in this system, I can only go a for a month before the tank kind of seems like it lacks growth energy. The crypts especially don't like such a long stretch. But when I change weekly, everything is much better growthwise in the tank.

I'm really not trying to be difficult. I swear...

Liz

 

[dutchy]

Maybe the waterchanges provide the plants with the nutrition they need, simply because there's enough of it in there. After a month it depletes. So as long as you do waterchanges, your plants grow well. Anyway it's a secondary effect of the waterchanges.

 

[lljdma06]

Maybe the waterchanges provide the plants with the nutrition they need, simply because there's enough of it in there. After a month it depletes. So as long as you do waterchanges, your plants grow well. Anyway it's a secondary effect of the waterchanges.

So I'm perhaps sacrificing CO2 stability for nutrients. What's interesting is that for the wattage I have, I'm not needing CO2. I'd typically be recommending CO2 injection or dosing of Carbon in some for a similar setup. Is the Amazonia contributing perhaps? I've never worked with it before.

Could another factor be plant density?

This is fascinating, thank you. I've had similar systems in the past, minus the Amazonia. I had one that was primarily stems & had no CO2 or ferts. I'll post pictures later. I'm at church now (I'm the alto soloist, so church is work).

Liz

 

[dutchy]

Not every light setup is the same. I've measured differences in PAR up to 30% with various bulbs. It also depends on the duration of the photoperiod you are using.

 

[lljdma06]

Not every light setup is the same. I've measured differences in PAR up to 30% with various bulbs. It also depends on the duration of the photoperiod you are using.

I almost fell on my face trying to check the fixture. It's an Aquaticlife 2x24W T5HO fixture. 10k bulbs, not that that really matters, though.

Started off with 4 hours, but now it's at 7 hours.

Liz

 

[Tom Barr]

But Tom, I do regular waterchanges in this tank, and that's not typical in a non CO2 setup. I know this because I typically say the same thing you just said above when recommending non CO2 to other hobbiests. But when I try to do the same thing in this system, I can only go a for a month before the tank kind of seems like it lacks growth energy. The crypts especially don't like such a long stretch. But when I change weekly, everything is much better growthwise in the tank.

I'm really not trying to be difficult. I swear...

Liz

Question should be, do you really need to do those water changes?
Perhaps just dose a little like I suggest in the Non CO2 article, that will tell if it's the CO2 or the nutrients.

The ADA As has more nutrients in it than you are use to, but it does not have everything you need nor will last forever.
You can add a few things certainly and as the tank grows in and there is more biomass, the demand for nutrients will increase, you will want to prune more often.

 

[lljdma06]

Question should be, do you really need to do those water changes?
Perhaps just dose a little like I suggest in the Non CO2 article, that will tell if it's the CO2 or the nutrients.

The ADA As has more nutrients in it than you are use to, but it does not have everything you need nor will last forever.
You can add a few things certainly and as the tank grows in and there is more biomass, the demand for nutrients will increase, you will want to prune more often.

I'll have a look at the article. I do have TPN+ which I've dosed in the past and could start up again. I suspect that the crypts run out of trace after a month. If I do the waterchanges say everyweek, they're not depleted and everything is fine. It's only the crypts, the rest of the plants don't really care. So, you're basically saying if I start dosing the ferts again, I can then relax the waterchanges and achieve similar results, perhaps better since I'll have more stable CO2 levels?

Hahaha you know already the work I have to do with the SW, so this would be a help to be able to relax with this tank a bit.

 

[uimike]

Hm, I'm in the same boat, so to speak. No water changes in more than a month in my 65g with Amazon 1 (which is quite older, 4 years), have been using up the rest of my Seachem liquid ferts, but have already stuck some substrate fert spikes near root concentrations. I did also buy nitrate, phosphate and Tropica mix, will start these soon, at Tom's recommended fraction of EI.
I am not going to say my tank is as purty as High CO2 ones, and Liz, yours is really nice - but at least I am very happy I haven't had any cyanobacteria, or any algal disaster. Fish are very colorful.

Guys, if I am topping the tank with distilled water, how should I dose Ca, Mg? A bit of tap water every now and then would do?

mike