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Can I add more CSM+B with RO water?

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by Erk, Oct 17, 2007.

  1. Erk

    Erk Guru Class Expert

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    I have been working on getting my fish healthy and dosing per EI, and I seem to still have issues with what looks like a Ca and Mg deficiency? I add 3/4teaspoon of Kent RO Right to my 5gal buckets during my water changes, but some of my stem plants still seem to get curled and stunted? I was wondering if it would be ok to add 1/4teaspoon vs 1/8teaspoon of CSM+B every other day when I dose my traces?

    Things seem to be getting much better for me, my fish and plants.

    Still have a little bit of algae, but Im tweaking my co2 slowly to get my drop checker greenish yellow. Last night I checked my pH at the end of the photoperiod right after the co2 went off, using API test kit, and it read 6.4? My pH is usually 7.0 without co2 on. Ive read around that a "full point" pH drop is about 30ppm co2? Does that mean I wanna get the pH down to 6.0? Its hard to tell if my DC matches the green 6.4 block on the API pH test kit

    Here are some updated pics

    th_IMG_0437.jpg
    Left side
    th_IMG_0436.jpg
    Right side

    Thanks very much:)
     
  2. Erk

    Erk Guru Class Expert

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    And here are some pics showing the issues

    th_IMG_0433.jpg
    AR covered in algae....is this BBA...only green?
    th_IMG_0427.jpg
    DC seems green...not greenish yellow tho
    th_IMG_0426.jpg
    Ammania G doing well here! I got this plant in the emersed form.
    th_IMG_0431.jpg
    Hopefully you can see behind the discus...more of the Ammania G...not doing so well...curled and skinny...much redder then the big tall stem that is doing well

    Thanks very much
     
  3. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    Be sure to fill the drop checker with 4 dKH distilled or DI water, and a couple or three drops of pH reagent, not with tank water. It only works with water that has a known KH and no ions in it that could affect pH or KH other than carbonate ions.

    If the a sample of tank water is allowed to sit around until the CO2 in it escapes down to a stable value, the rise in pH from what it was in the tank will be 1.0 if the tank water had ten times as much ppm of CO2 as the water that degassed outside of the tank. But, we have no way to know what ppm of CO2 is in that degassed water, so we don't know if the tank water was at 10 ppm, 20 ppm, 30 ppm or something else, when we get that 1.0 rise. At best the 1.0 pH rise test is an extremely crude way to see that you have a lot of CO2 in the water.
     
  4. Erk

    Erk Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks VaughnH

    I do have 4dkh water in my drop checker, and I use three drops of pH reagent. I read somewhere that the 1 point pH drop is another way to check for 30ppm of co2...I agree with you tho, it does seem like a crude way, and that is why I was talking about my pH being 6.4 at the end of the evening. I just wanted to be sure it wasnt supposed to be 6.0...kinda like a double check?

    So is it ok to add roughly double the amount of csm+b cause Im using RO water? I just received grumpys GH booster, so I will use that from now on during my water changes, and back off the csm+b. I also received chelated iron as well, and will switch over to that once I finish off my seachem iron

    I feel like Im getting close with things now a days, but I def. still have some tweaking to do.

    My red plants just arent very red, and some of my plants seem stunted. My Limnophila aromatica is bright green....no purple at all:( so I feel I have to get my iron levels up some, as well as my Ca and Mg

    I also wanna work on circulation, but thats a different thread when the time comes

    Thanks again
    Eric
     
  5. VaughnH

    VaughnH Lifetime Charter Member
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    I keep answering questions you aren't asking, so, if you are using RO water, why are you doing so? When you do that you have to be very careful to add back the calcium and magnesium the plants need, as well as the other trace elements that are normally in tap water. I think the correct way to do that is to use GH as an indicator for how much GH booster to add, ignoring the other elements that are in it that are also trace elements. Then add trace element mix to reach the ppm of iron that you wish to have, and nitrates and phosphates to reach those levels, assuming that those are from KNO3 and KH2PO4, which also supply potassium. I haven't seen nor heard of a good reason to dose iron separately. In fact my CSM+B actually has extra iron in it from the time when Greg Watson thought it might be beneficial to add more iron routinely, but experience showed him it was not beneficial, so he dropped that product.

    Now, what was the question again??? Oh, about doubling CSM+B: I wouldn't do it, without also doubling the KNO3 and KH2PO4, and the reason would be that I would be convinced that my overall dosing was too little, given the high light I was using. I don't think you will be short of trace elements if you follow EI and are not short of nitrates and phosphates.
     
  6. Erk

    Erk Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks very much VaughnH...Im sorry if I yap about too much at one time

    I got an RO unit back when I first started with discus and thought they needed it since my tap waters readings would fluctuate from day to day as far as pH and nitrates go, and it was rather hard water.

    I am now in a nice routine...prolly much more time consuming then most would wanna do, and maybe eventually I will slowly start to switch things over to tap water, but my discus lay eggs and I dont wanna mess with things right now

    I dont wish to breed them, especially now, knowing who is male and female.....I would have ugly babies! haha

    I have been upping my kent RO right amounts during my water changes...slowly, in order to try to do this? That is why I asked if I could double my trace doses to keep these levels high throughout the week

    I will test my GH tonight...last time I did it, it was at 4, with a KH of 2. I do use KNO3 and KH2PO4 for nitrates and phosphates...I also use the extra potassium from Greg:eek:

    I believe I have seachems Iron test? Not a very good test! I was aware that the csm+b has iron in it, and the GH Booster I received yesterday has some in it as well

    I follow EI, and dont have any BGA or GSA...maybe a lil GDA and "green" BBA and/or Green Thread Algae? I still kinda feel my dosing was on the low end with using RO water, and thats why I came back here....for a lil fine tuning?

    I would love some suggestions on what is recommended to fine tune things?

    I currently dose:

    1/2teaspoon KNO3 3x/week
    1/8 KH2PO4 3x/week
    1/8 K2SO4 3x/week

    1/4 csm+b & 1-2ml seachem iron on off days from macros....3x/week, no dosing the day before water changes

    50% WC every saturday

    My lighting is 1x96watt dual daylight 67K/10K for 9 hours(1-10pm), with a second 96watt 10K bulb coming on for 4 hours midday(3-7pm)

    Again...sorry if I touched on too many things at once

    and sorry for the book

    Thanks very much
    Eric
     
  7. Erk

    Erk Guru Class Expert

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    I received my GH booster end of last week, and Im trying to sort out my dosing and RO reconstitution regime

    I backed the traces back down to 1/8teaspoon, and I only throw in the additional 2-4ml of chelated iron once per week when I dose my csm+b

    Now, when setting up my buckets (i know you guys dont like the bucket routine) I used to use 3/4teaspoon (per 5gal bucket) of kent RO right, and some prime and some non phosphate buffered pH increaser

    Do I need to use the kent RO right if Im using the 3/4 teaspoon GH booster as recommended in the sticky for dosing based on a 40-60gal aquarium?

    Any help with streamlining what Im doing would be great!

    Thanks very much
    Eric
     
  8. FacePlanted

    FacePlanted Guru Class Expert

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    No, both the kent RO Right and the "GH Builder" do the same thing. However, I think? the sticky says to just add X amount of GH builder on top of whatever your current GH is when you do a waterchange. This adds like 1-2 GH on top of whatever water you are using. But you can do this with RO right. Or you can purely use "GH Booster" to raise the GH to the desired level. I would think the RO Right would have a broader spectrum of elements that it adds to the water. I have used RO Right in the past, as well as seachem's Equillibrium. I really like seachem's line of products for reconstituting RO water. Equillibrium according to the instructions to build GH, and Acid and Alkaline Buffer in specific ratios according to the label to build KH up to a certain PH. 3 different jars of stuff to add to my RO water to bring my GH/KH up to the specific levels that I wanted. It worked perfectly, but I realized that just mixing RO water with tap at a certain ratio was MUCH easier and less time consuming, and gave the same results with much less time.
     
  9. Erk

    Erk Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks very much Mike B...thats a great response! I really appreciate it

    I decided to use the GH booster because I would get stunted tops on several plants using the RO Right like I was, and I was slowly raising the amount I would add...I think just to keep things consistent, I will back the RO right back down to 1/2teaspoon (per 5gal bucket) I used to add, and add the recommended 3/4 teaspoon GH booster to one bucket and be done with it....Im sure sooner or later I will go with the mix of RO and tap...especially when the baby arrives in december;)

    Anyone see any problems with trying this for now? The discus seem very happy and lay eggs on my glass...so I dont wanna do too much at once...IM always good for that....patience tho I hear is the key! hahaha

    Thanks again very much
    Eric
     
  10. FacePlanted

    FacePlanted Guru Class Expert

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    I've seen other threads here and there about stunting/twisting tips, and no one really seems to come up with the actual culprit. Many seem to believe its ca/mg (GH), but I dont think anyone could really prove it. I think what you are going to back down to would work fine. Really, I would think one or the other would be fine also, but the GH booster may be a little more tailored to the plants/planted tanks, because it contains potassium, maybe a little Fe, etc., and the RO Right might not--it may only contain Ca,Mg, and some other minerals, but I dont think they really list what they are on the bottle. BUT, using a little of each might give you the best of both worlds. Just dont use too much, or too little, and I think you will be ok.

    -Mike B-
     
  11. Erk

    Erk Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks Mike B

    I agree..I think a lil bit of both would work ok. I looked at the container of Kent RO Right I have, and it doesnt list specific minerals on it:rolleyes:

    So im backing down my trace dose, and my Kent RO Right, and using a lil bit of the booster.

    Hopefully no more stunted tips...we shall see

    Thanks again very much!
    Eric
     
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