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Can I adapt a Mazzei to my setup?

Discussion in 'CO2 Enrichment' started by Crazy Loaches, Jan 15, 2008.

  1. Crazy Loaches

    Crazy Loaches Guru Class Expert

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    Here is a diagram of my setup:

    [​IMG]

    As many of you know I tried the simple approach first, I am bubbling co2 into the intake of the return pump. The problem is if I set my bubble rate so that I can reach around 30ppm I start getting quite a lot of large bubbles in the tank that just go straight to the top. I can turn the bubble rate down to the point were very few bubbles come out the spraybar but it struggles to be able to hit 30ppm.

    My recent endeavor was to make something similar to the Barr internal venturi reactor in the sump were co2 gas buildup in the top was sucked via venturi back to the pump. I've been having some trouble DIY'ing a venturi for my venturi-less pump I am trying to use. I just cant seem to get any suction. So I guess my next step will be ordering something... and before I go any further I wanted to see if there was any way I could adapt my current setup to utilize a Mazzei.

    Some things I'd like to do: for one I setup the spraybars to basically cover the entire length of the tank for optimal co2 dispersion and current. So I'd like to have the co2 run into the current plumbing somehow. Would it even be possible to tee my 1" tubing between the RP and bulkheads and have a Mazzei powered by a Quite One 3000 T'd in? Or will the RP be pushing the flow backwards through the Mazzei?

    Or it might be easier to T it into the suction side of the RP, but not sure what all will happen to the mist going through the extra pump and few extra feet of line.

    I know the obvious solution of putting the venturi inline (like in the 1" vinyl hose) would probably not work due to the low head rating of the pump. Pump is rated at 3600GPH and 12' head. I could possible step up to a higher head pump like the Barracuda, but thats an expensive upgrade not only for the $300 price tag but also 325W power draw vs. 160W. And I would be nervous how much my overflows can handle. I'm already having issues with duckweed clogging the overflows :mad: and been running my Dart pump throttle down to about half until I can get the tank cleaned out.

    I am not completely opposed to ripping out all my plumbing and a whole redesign, if someone can see a better arrangement using the Mazzei let me know. The issue here is that the tank is running, I've got some starter plants in it as well as my algae eating crew. So it becomes very difficult to rip out plumbing, especially giving glue a few days to dry, and painting the in tank parts black, etc.

    BTW, my diagram is simplistic, and doesnt show things like ball valves, unions, and check valves that are in the plumbing also. Any comments appreciated.
     
  2. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    .............
     
  3. Crazy Loaches

    Crazy Loaches Guru Class Expert

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    Alright, I went ahead and ordered and received the 584 injector. I got it rigged up today just to check it... still need to put in a check valve unless I want to run the pump 24/7. And I didnt cut any new hose to size so some pieces are short and others long... will trim them for proper fit later.

    I did like I said above and tee'd off the one of the return lines and used my QO4000 pump in the sump pushing the mazzei and into the tee. I was a little worried at first, because with the return pump off and the QO4000 on I could feel a good suction from the Mazzei but with the return pump on it was actually dripping out water through the venturi port. I had to throttle back the ball valve on the return line to about 50% to start to feel any suction. Here is the setup:

    [​IMG]
    The return line comes in through the ball valve on the left side of the pic, the braided vinyl hose is feeding the Mazzei and hooked up to the QO pump in the sump. The Mazzei of course uses a larger port so I used 1/4" tubbing for a couple feet then it transitions to the 1/8" co2 line.

    At first I was getting what seemed to be way to much mist / too large bubbles. Still finer bubbles than I was getting before but a crapload more of them. I'd say it made the water look misty but it was more like a blizzard...
    After turning the flow back up on the return line the blizzard started to turn back just into a dusty/misty tank... at first the co2 flow stopped, probably from more back pressure, but after a few seconds it resumed flow... probably just needed to build up to a higher pressure. I was able to turn the return line all the way on full... and it seems this gives the finest mist, but still not very fine.

    I'm wondering if I should have went with the 1/2" injector instead. It is dropping my pH faster, nearly double as fast, and also hitting my controllers setpoint vs. struggling to maintain just above... I havent got a DC in there yet but I am setting it right now for a 1* drop, from 7.1 overnight to 6.1 with co2. The datalog shows yesterday that with 1 micro bubbler on the return pump intake and 1 reactor in the sump that my pH hung around 6.2's all day, only hitting the 6.1 setpoint later in the evening. The Mazzei (which replaced the micro bubbler into the return pump) droped to 6.2 in almost half the time and hit 6.1 shortly there after. So, so far seems to be working well except on the visual end of things.
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Be careful, as you can see, they are extremely responsive.
    I've opted to run a needle wheel approach after messing with mazzei's.
    They have trade offs.

    Buying a bigger pump, wasting more $ on that(what do I do with this one I have?), and then redoing things, it was easier for a sump set up to run a needle wheel.

    So there are trade offs here.

    The suction from the mazzei is good, but makes reading the bubble counts hard.
    You indicated this after a time it stabilized.
    Be careful with that.

    Watch and very slowly adjust that CO2 rate over a day, then you can relax.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. Crazy Loaches

    Crazy Loaches Guru Class Expert

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    I know many like the Mazzei's and say the mist isnt distracting, at least when done properly. I believe my setup isnt producing the optimally small sized mist. A lot of it is going right to the top so I think I am still wasting a lot of co2. I tried to picture it, but it seems practically impossible for the true feeling of all the bubbles coming out in the pic. So I took a quick video. mazzei.wmv (2.9MB) I assume the mazzei's optimally have a finer mist than that?

    Tom... replacing my pumps is getting really old lol! But hey, its my first 'big' tank so I didnt fully know what to expect. I think you are the only one so far I've heard talking about needle wheel pumps and I didnt really now what they were until now. And it just so happens they make a needle wheel version of my pump, the Orca. Do you know anything about it? I do happen to have another use for the Dart I am using now... so if I was willing to get a needle wheel pump would this be the best option in your opinion? I couldnt find the actual flow ratings, would the needle wheel version have the same flow and head as the standard version or does the needle wheel reduce its performance? Or is there another pump you suggest? I do like the Dart I have now, pretty quite and efficient for the flow.

    I was also thinking about just upping to a higher head rated reeflo pump like the Barracuda, and running dual Mazzei's on it. Its rated 20' head .
     
  6. jsrevenaugh

    jsrevenaugh Junior Poster

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    Big bubbles

    The bubbles in the video are quite large. I'm running a 584 on the output of an Eheim 2026 (about 200 gph and 6' of head) and my bubbles are too small to see in video of that resolution. In fact, with half the lights on, roughly 1.5 watts/gallon, I can't see them period. My head and flow rate are way below spec for a Mazzei 584, but it works. In fact, it works great. Perhaps the key is having the injector right before the spraybar. The pressure drop across the injector is maximized giving my underweight pump enough "ooomph" to get a good vacuum going and good bubble atomization. Perhaps a long length of tubing and the accompanying head loss to drag and time for bubble coalescence are doing you in.
     
  7. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    ................
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I typically add Iwaski pumps.
    But look at the pump cost, electric use and some other trade offs, I think the needle wheel method works well vs this.

    I do not need a larger pump(then you have to sell the old one), these tend to cost a bit, and then the mazzei itself.

    The needle wheel loop can be applied in line or in the sump, most larger tanks have sumps due to evaporation losses can be a chore to refill in the tank.

    So the sump simply has a needle wheel pump that feeds directly into the return pump's suction side.

    I can use a small needle wheel pump since they rely on the flow rates of the main pump to distribute the gas/water mix to the tank, not the needle wheel pump itself which is just to atomize the gas.

    They can handle fairly high flows of CO2, as they are more designed for far far more air for marine skimmers.

    So even a small one fed into the main line can do a good job.

    Cal Labs aquaria sells a small in line disc sealed inside a glass ball, but it's fragile and only handles 160GPH, smaller than any canister filter or pump I own.

    These can be Tee's off and used in a similar manner to reduce the flow through rate and not affect the over all flow of the sump return or canister filter, simply make a by pass to divert some of the water through it.
    Same deal with a small in line pump with a needle wheel.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  9. Crazy Loaches

    Crazy Loaches Guru Class Expert

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    Well Tom, I agree with you about the trade offs for properly setting up the Mazzei... it just isn't going to be worth it to spend $200-300 more on a pump just to have a super high pressure rating as well as consume double or triple the wattage - when my current pump is just kicking but and nice and quite. I am not completely opposed to getting another pump, but many negative aspects at this time like the added electricity as well as re-doing most my plumbing which will probably be another $50 to over $100 depending, plus the issues with having to redo all the plumbing with the tank already running & stocked. It just doesn't seem worth all this extra cost when there are so many other choices.

    But since I now have the Mazzei injectors (actually two of them) I might make an internal or external reactor utilizing the QO pump in the sump like I unsuccessfully tried. The Mazzei would give me a venturi port so I could make a venturi loop.

    And I could do at least two different injection methods, since I've run two lines to the tank already. So I can try a few things, or have a back up.

    Tom, do you have any particular needle wheel pump you recommend I look for... Something that would work well in the sump but be quiet and reasonable wattage?

    Yeah, when I said dusty / misty it was better than the video... it seemed to get worse again later in the day. Will have to play with the flow a bit to figure out where it is best. I really havent done much with it yet, yesterday was the first day.

    Yeah, noisy is the deal killer besides the wattage too... I'd give up the co2 and plants before a quiet pump (or probably be facing a divorce lol)... I'll have to do some searching and check the reviews on the Pan World pumps if I do decide to look for a new pump. I mainly went with the Dart and considered the others (hammerhead) due to their good reviews on reefcentral, plus they are made in the USA and 3yr warranty.

    Their flow charts seem pretty accurate from what I have tested on the Dart, so they aren't tryin' to fool ya, its operating just about exactly per their claims. Only thing I haven't tested yet is how close their wattage curve is to the flow. How many other companies even go through the extra effort to give both flow and wattage curves... thumbs up to Sequence in that regard.
     
  10. Crazy Loaches

    Crazy Loaches Guru Class Expert

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    OK, a couple of things I've noticed. If I backed off the bubble rate going to the injector I could get a finer mist but it still wasnt fine enough and then I couldnt maintain the pH setpoint. So went back to full bubble rate. I havent actually figured it out but I'd guess I am at around 10 bps x2.

    But later in the day I went to feed the fish and shut off the return pump. The Mazzei and its pump was still going, and since I have a check valve on the mainline, the Mazzei was still pumping water and co2 into the tank although very slow. I was quite surprised that this made a very fine mist. And a lot of it... within a couple minutes it pushed the co2 over the setpoint and shut off the solenoids... so it seems this was working great... but when the return pump is running it seems to screw it all up. I wish I had another bulkhead or two, I could run the Mazzei on its own return line. Maybe I'll just run a line up the back of the tank.
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, you need not put all your apples in one basket so to speak.

    I rarely do.

    So............

    I'd try adding an in line booster pump.

    Basically on the venturi loop, add another pump.
    This can be a smaller in line external pump, it does not need to be large, maybe 400gph or so, just enough to drive the venturi or......................DIY the impeller and go needle wheel.

    No need for higher pressure(which means larger GPH's, $$$, redo plumbing, more noise etc).

    I just have trouble with those trade offs.
    You can modified the impeller.
    This will = more finer mist.
    You can also do the same inside the tank with a small powerhead if you prefer a simpler solution, but one that's inside the tank.

    I plan on doing a little of inside the tank and once I have folks over or open houses, photo shoots etc, I'll remove it.

    Typically, I do a water change that day in the morning, then refill, and then at the last minute, remove it when folks show up.

    This gives me the final tweakage with the internal mister.
    You can use the flow from the filter, but I like to target certain areas with the mist, the flows from the filters works all the time anyway.

    I've opted away from the overflows+ sump for now. I'll still keep them on hand, but I'll not use them now. Just 2x Ocean clear's, UV, mech, Chem, Bio+ Neede wheel loop+ Heater via 1" bulk heads for the in/out.

    You might have trade offs you do not mind. I'm pretty picky and try to minimize the redo and extra junk.

    I tried the Fluval FX5's, I gt two, but I do not like them really, too tall for my cabinets.

    The OC's are only 12" tall and easier to clear and take out, and they mech clean much better as well as the bio/chem additions are easier.

    I also have pressure gauges so I know when the flow rates are lower, and the filters are clogging, and they have the in line UV anyway.

    2 of those are cheaper than the FX5 and they have more options, but I still need a pump to go with, so I am using a Iwaki 40 HP. I'll get about 700 GPH through the system. Gen X makes a decent pump, but I like the Iwaki.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr








    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. Crazy Loaches

    Crazy Loaches Guru Class Expert

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    Tom, I have always been interested in the Ocean Clears but no one seems to use them much so I never see much info / opinions about them on the forums. My next tank project I am planning on a small river tank setup, 40g long, and was thinking about using them. I was going to have something like the Dart I have now if I ended up replacing it, or perhaps the Snapper, as a closed loop going from one end of tank to the other (a true uni-directional river setup). I was also going to include an overflow and sump for the filtration, with a simple wet/dry in the sump and an inline ocean clear mechanical on the return line back to the tank. This tank wont be planted (well maybe an anubias, java fern, or bolbitis).


    And just to correct something I said earlier. I mentioned that the pH quickly shot down when I was using the Mazzei but shut off the return pump. I thought without the added pressure from the return that the Mazzei was working better. This isnt because it was working better that way (although the mist was about perfect then) but the reason is because I have another reactor in the sump and the pH probe is also in the sump... since the return pump was off the co2 probably jumped in the sump really good during that time since it kept going. I probably should alter the programming so if the return pump is off it will also shut the co2 off.
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    An OC on 40 would be cool, you'd get extreme cleaning.

    BTW, I think Big Al's has them on sale, 99$.
    You can swap out the media and add the 25 sqft pleated cartiage, and fill the center with Zeolite, carbon, purigen etc.

    Or leave the media etc.
    You need a decent external pump, so that's 50-150$ extra, but it's a gnarly filter, mostly used on reefs etc.

    You can find lots of info on RC forums about them.

    Any dual level redundancy you can add to the tank, the better.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. Crazy Loaches

    Crazy Loaches Guru Class Expert

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    Extreme cleaning is the goal... fast flowing mountain streams are probably one of the cleanest and most oxygenated waters any of our fish come from, and thats what will be in the tank (hillstream loaches, plus some other river dither fish). I havent looked at them but I assume when you talk about swapping out the media for zeo, purigen, etc I assume its bio media... which is fine I was planning on a wet/dry loop for bio and oxygenation, perhaps the OC on the return line from the return pump and after the OC have a T and valve going back to a bio tower emptying back into the sump. But this is another project, and far away (I still need to finish up the 240g planted) so maybe spring/summer. I'll take a look at the reef forums for more info on the OC's, I often visit reefcentral but with my free membership the search feature is usually disabled. But google often finds stuff on reef central if I include that in my search.


    But back to the topic of what to do with CO2 for my tank...

    I was thinking of these needle/mesh wheel pumps, and I also have the Mazzei... would it be to overkill if I used a pump like the QO3000 or 4000 and made a reactor with a venturi loop, with a Mazzei for the venture, and the needle wheel mod to the QO impellor? I'd be combining 3 different features in one, a venturi loop reactor, a mazzei for the venturi, and the mesh wheel mod.

    I could make 2 of these combinations for my 240. But to minimize power consumption, if they are efficient enough, I could make them from maxi jet powerheads with the mod, into the reactor, but I'd have to rely on the maxi's own venturi port rather than a mazzei.

    Just throwing some ideas out there, that I could do with what I already had.
     
  15. Neil Frank

    Neil Frank Lifetime Charter Member
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    hello all. My 1st post on Barr Report!
    Interested in recommendations for an OC canister to be installed after sump for 120g . Which Ocean Clear model, and for what reasons. Love the idea of using drain water to back flush it. Thinking it would be most useful for high efficiency mechanical filtration... expecially for the established tank, but i suspect that there are other filtration reasons to consider for the tank when first set up.

    Also can Tom or someone else point me to the sump diagrams. I have seen this mentioned but searching has not gotten me there.
    Neil
     
  16. rusticitas

    rusticitas Lifetime Charter Member
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    Sources/Stores for Mazzei injectors?

    Where is everyone getting their Mazzei injectors from?
     
  17. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

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    I picked mine up from Ryan Herco and they have some of the better prices I've seen so far.
     
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