Can I adapt a Mazzei to my setup?

Here is a diagram of my setup:



As many of you know I tried the simple approach first, I am bubbling co2 into the intake of the return pump. The problem is if I set my bubble rate so that I can reach around 30ppm I start getting quite a lot of large bubbles in the tank that just go straight to the top. I can turn the bubble rate down to the point were very few bubbles come out the spraybar but it struggles to be able to hit 30ppm.

My recent endeavor was to make something similar to the Barr internal venturi reactor in the sump were co2 gas buildup in the top was sucked via venturi back to the pump. I've been having some trouble DIY'ing a venturi for my venturi-less pump I am trying to use. I just cant seem to get any suction. So I guess my next step will be ordering something... and before I go any further I wanted to see if there was any way I could adapt my current setup to utilize a Mazzei.

Some things I'd like to do: for one I setup the spraybars to basically cover the entire length of the tank for optimal co2 dispersion and current. So I'd like to have the co2 run into the current plumbing somehow. Would it even be possible to tee my 1" tubing between the RP and bulkheads and have a Mazzei powered by a Quite One 3000 T'd in? Or will the RP be pushing the flow backwards through the Mazzei?

Or it might be easier to T it into the suction side of the RP, but not sure what all will happen to the mist going through the extra pump and few extra feet of line.

I know the obvious solution of putting the venturi inline (like in the 1" vinyl hose) would probably not work due to the low head rating of the pump. Pump is rated at 3600GPH and 12' head. I could possible step up to a higher head pump like the Barracuda, but thats an expensive upgrade not only for the $300 price tag but also 325W power draw vs. 160W. And I would be nervous how much my overflows can handle. I'm already having issues with duckweed clogging the overflows and been running my Dart pump throttle down to about half until I can get the tank cleaned out.

I am not completely opposed to ripping out all my plumbing and a whole redesign, if someone can see a better arrangement using the Mazzei let me know. The issue here is that the tank is running, I've got some starter plants in it as well as my algae eating crew. So it becomes very difficult to rip out plumbing, especially giving glue a few days to dry, and painting the in tank parts black, etc.

BTW, my diagram is simplistic, and doesnt show things like ball valves, unions, and check valves that are in the plumbing also. Any comments appreciated.

 

Alright, I went ahead and ordered and received the 584 injector. I got it rigged up today just to check it... still need to put in a check valve unless I want to run the pump 24/7. And I didnt cut any new hose to size so some pieces are short and others long... will trim them for proper fit later.

I did like I said above and tee'd off the one of the return lines and used my QO4000 pump in the sump pushing the mazzei and into the tee. I was a little worried at first, because with the return pump off and the QO4000 on I could feel a good suction from the Mazzei but with the return pump on it was actually dripping out water through the venturi port. I had to throttle back the ball valve on the return line to about 50% to start to feel any suction. Here is the setup:


The return line comes in through the ball valve on the left side of the pic, the braided vinyl hose is feeding the Mazzei and hooked up to the QO pump in the sump. The Mazzei of course uses a larger port so I used 1/4" tubbing for a couple feet then it transitions to the 1/8" co2 line.

At first I was getting what seemed to be way to much mist / too large bubbles. Still finer bubbles than I was getting before but a crapload more of them. I'd say it made the water look misty but it was more like a blizzard...
After turning the flow back up on the return line the blizzard started to turn back just into a dusty/misty tank... at first the co2 flow stopped, probably from more back pressure, but after a few seconds it resumed flow... probably just needed to build up to a higher pressure. I was able to turn the return line all the way on full... and it seems this gives the finest mist, but still not very fine.

I'm wondering if I should have went with the 1/2" injector instead. It is dropping my pH faster, nearly double as fast, and also hitting my controllers setpoint vs. struggling to maintain just above... I havent got a DC in there yet but I am setting it right now for a 1* drop, from 7.1 overnight to 6.1 with co2. The datalog shows yesterday that with 1 micro bubbler on the return pump intake and 1 reactor in the sump that my pH hung around 6.2's all day, only hitting the 6.1 setpoint later in the evening. The Mazzei (which replaced the micro bubbler into the return pump) droped to 6.2 in almost half the time and hit 6.1 shortly there after. So, so far seems to be working well except on the visual end of things.

 

I know many like the Mazzei's and say the mist isnt distracting, at least when done properly. I believe my setup isnt producing the optimally small sized mist. A lot of it is going right to the top so I think I am still wasting a lot of co2. I tried to picture it, but it seems practically impossible for the true feeling of all the bubbles coming out in the pic. So I took a quick video. mazzei.wmv (2.9MB) I assume the mazzei's optimally have a finer mist than that?

Tom... replacing my pumps is getting really old lol! But hey, its my first 'big' tank so I didnt fully know what to expect. I think you are the only one so far I've heard talking about needle wheel pumps and I didnt really now what they were until now. And it just so happens they make a needle wheel version of my pump, the Orca. Do you know anything about it? I do happen to have another use for the Dart I am using now... so if I was willing to get a needle wheel pump would this be the best option in your opinion? I couldnt find the actual flow ratings, would the needle wheel version have the same flow and head as the standard version or does the needle wheel reduce its performance? Or is there another pump you suggest? I do like the Dart I have now, pretty quite and efficient for the flow.

I was also thinking about just upping to a higher head rated reeflo pump like the Barracuda, and running dual Mazzei's on it. Its rated 20' head .

 

Well Tom, I agree with you about the trade offs for properly setting up the Mazzei... it just isn't going to be worth it to spend $200-300 more on a pump just to have a super high pressure rating as well as consume double or triple the wattage - when my current pump is just kicking but and nice and quite. I am not completely opposed to getting another pump, but many negative aspects at this time like the added electricity as well as re-doing most my plumbing which will probably be another $50 to over $100 depending, plus the issues with having to redo all the plumbing with the tank already running & stocked. It just doesn't seem worth all this extra cost when there are so many other choices.

But since I now have the Mazzei injectors (actually two of them) I might make an internal or external reactor utilizing the QO pump in the sump like I unsuccessfully tried. The Mazzei would give me a venturi port so I could make a venturi loop.

And I could do at least two different injection methods, since I've run two lines to the tank already. So I can try a few things, or have a back up.

Tom, do you have any particular needle wheel pump you recommend I look for... Something that would work well in the sump but be quiet and reasonable wattage?

Yeah, when I said dusty / misty it was better than the video... it seemed to get worse again later in the day. Will have to play with the flow a bit to figure out where it is best. I really havent done much with it yet, yesterday was the first day.

Yeah, noisy is the deal killer besides the wattage too... I'd give up the co2 and plants before a quiet pump (or probably be facing a divorce lol)... I'll have to do some searching and check the reviews on the Pan World pumps if I do decide to look for a new pump. I mainly went with the Dart and considered the others (hammerhead) due to their good reviews on reefcentral, plus they are made in the USA and 3yr warranty.

Their flow charts seem pretty accurate from what I have tested on the Dart, so they aren't tryin' to fool ya, its operating just about exactly per their claims. Only thing I haven't tested yet is how close their wattage curve is to the flow. How many other companies even go through the extra effort to give both flow and wattage curves... thumbs up to Sequence in that regard.

 

OK, a couple of things I've noticed. If I backed off the bubble rate going to the injector I could get a finer mist but it still wasnt fine enough and then I couldnt maintain the pH setpoint. So went back to full bubble rate. I havent actually figured it out but I'd guess I am at around 10 bps x2.

But later in the day I went to feed the fish and shut off the return pump. The Mazzei and its pump was still going, and since I have a check valve on the mainline, the Mazzei was still pumping water and co2 into the tank although very slow. I was quite surprised that this made a very fine mist. And a lot of it... within a couple minutes it pushed the co2 over the setpoint and shut off the solenoids... so it seems this was working great... but when the return pump is running it seems to screw it all up. I wish I had another bulkhead or two, I could run the Mazzei on its own return line. Maybe I'll just run a line up the back of the tank.

 

Tom, I have always been interested in the Ocean Clears but no one seems to use them much so I never see much info / opinions about them on the forums. My next tank project I am planning on a small river tank setup, 40g long, and was thinking about using them. I was going to have something like the Dart I have now if I ended up replacing it, or perhaps the Snapper, as a closed loop going from one end of tank to the other (a true uni-directional river setup). I was also going to include an overflow and sump for the filtration, with a simple wet/dry in the sump and an inline ocean clear mechanical on the return line back to the tank. This tank wont be planted (well maybe an anubias, java fern, or bolbitis).


And just to correct something I said earlier. I mentioned that the pH quickly shot down when I was using the Mazzei but shut off the return pump. I thought without the added pressure from the return that the Mazzei was working better. This isnt because it was working better that way (although the mist was about perfect then) but the reason is because I have another reactor in the sump and the pH probe is also in the sump... since the return pump was off the co2 probably jumped in the sump really good during that time since it kept going. I probably should alter the programming so if the return pump is off it will also shut the co2 off.

 

Extreme cleaning is the goal... fast flowing mountain streams are probably one of the cleanest and most oxygenated waters any of our fish come from, and thats what will be in the tank (hillstream loaches, plus some other river dither fish). I havent looked at them but I assume when you talk about swapping out the media for zeo, purigen, etc I assume its bio media... which is fine I was planning on a wet/dry loop for bio and oxygenation, perhaps the OC on the return line from the return pump and after the OC have a T and valve going back to a bio tower emptying back into the sump. But this is another project, and far away (I still need to finish up the 240g planted) so maybe spring/summer. I'll take a look at the reef forums for more info on the OC's, I often visit reefcentral but with my free membership the search feature is usually disabled. But google often finds stuff on reef central if I include that in my search.


But back to the topic of what to do with CO2 for my tank...

I was thinking of these needle/mesh wheel pumps, and I also have the Mazzei... would it be to overkill if I used a pump like the QO3000 or 4000 and made a reactor with a venturi loop, with a Mazzei for the venture, and the needle wheel mod to the QO impellor? I'd be combining 3 different features in one, a venturi loop reactor, a mazzei for the venturi, and the mesh wheel mod.

I could make 2 of these combinations for my 240. But to minimize power consumption, if they are efficient enough, I could make them from maxi jet powerheads with the mod, into the reactor, but I'd have to rely on the maxi's own venturi port rather than a mazzei.

Just throwing some ideas out there, that I could do with what I already had.