This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.
  1. We are after as many aquarium plant images that we can get, doing so will assist us in completing the aquarium plant database.

    https://barrreport.com/threads/aquatic-plant-images-wanted.14374/
    Dismiss Notice

CaCl2&MgSO4

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by deucebiggss, Feb 4, 2010.

  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,693
    Likes Received:
    726
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    I do not think anyone has ever seen Cl- issues in aquatic plants in this hobby to date.
    Santa Barbara had very very high Cl-, I had no issues, more KH related issues, but not SO4 or Cl- etc.

    If you want to test how far and much Cl- it takes, use KCL and then keep goign slowly ona nice looking reference tank that already has had high K+ in the PAST, so you are not tempted to finger K+ for anything.

    I think it'll be quite a large no# for Cl- before we see toxicity.

    I know Hydrilla grows fine, as well as Vals and Pondweeds at 1200ppm Cl- in Salt Springs, Florida.
    My tap was 200-400ppm in SB.

    I'd bark up another tree.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  2. Wet

    Wet Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    'case any of you folks are interested, I added well above 50ppm Cl into my tanks weekly when using various sized KCl ("Sodium Free Water Softener") nuggets. I do not believe I have ever seen Cl toxicity. I am now also of the opinion that much K is completely unnecessary even in high uptake (>, say, 20ppm NO3 input required weekly), but that's for another post.
     
  3. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,693
    Likes Received:
    726
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    Steve and I discussed the K+ extra dosing some time ago, perhaps 10 years now. I decided to see what the K:N ratio would be for typical dry weight K:N for aquatic plants.
    I came up with about a conservative estimate that showed that 4:1 ratio of K+ to N for each mole of KNO3 added would be about 2.5-4 X the required amount of extra N to balance this out, at least without becoming excess is terms of K+.

    Plants would only need the 4x extra K+ if there was very high bioloads, eg, 75% or more of the weekly N came from NH4/fish waste etc.
    The other possible issue is using extra K+ to balance high SO4/Cl/NO3 in the vacuole, but if you add water with high Cl, and KNO3 etc, then there's typically plenty of ions availbale, but the plants do like K+ for the anion balance.

    Overall, there's little need for adding more K2SO4, but doing so never hurts.
    Many had suggested this(it would indeed harm plants, stunt tips etc) and some respected folks made a case for this hypothesis.
    Problem was, they only looked at their problems, not their references and those of others that falsified the hypothesis...........
    They also did not go back and test their hypothesis on a such a reference tank, those that did, did not find the same results, including several folks that had winning entries in aquascaping competitions.

    It's far easier to overlook something no matter how damn advanced you think you are, than it is to simply falsify one issue/hypothesis.
    You need to know how likely/unlikely it is that you are right/wrong when you make a "test". Observations are good and useful information also, no matter what type they are, but they do not offer support in many cases.

    I'll say we know much less than we like to think we really do. So we should double check whether what we thinkj might be correct is in fact correct.
    This answers less(rules some things out), and raises more questions.
    Sometimes we might get lucky, find a cause here and there, but rarely.
    Even then, there might be several causes for the same observation.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  4. Wet

    Wet Lifetime Members
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    this is true, especially in regards to repeatability. while the advanced members participating in this thread have included their process and have bullshit meters that encourage them to test any given claim or post, it's also true that many folks in this hobby repeat information from damned advanced hobbyists without regard for testing to see themselves. but I disagree about the spirit of testing or association or even incorrect posts about causation and correlation: the more people test these things the more they post about it and have the opportunity to have other question their methods. the wannabe scientist hobbyist (say, guys like me) then rethink and by extension improve their method. and it gets all of our brains working.

    and conitinuing this thought, cl- from various sources with ions at known concentration (be it ca or k at levels already known by the hobbyist in their tanks and associated variables) is exactly they kind of thing we should play with. maybe, for those still concerned about cl toxicity, k would be better with it's many cheap and easily available forms (kcl as no salt, k2so4 from anywhere, etc.). maybe it's fe. but for gods sake keep playing and posting about it. we all become better when we look at the results, recalibrate our bs meters, look again, then get our hands wet all over again. :D
     
    #44 Wet, Feb 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2010
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    18,693
    Likes Received:
    726
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    Anyone playing around and testing is fine, but what can be really say about it in the end?


    We can rule some things out, like a nice well run tank full of Ammannia with known high K+, say 100ppm and then a few folks with nice stands also add say 50ppm of K+ and wait, wait and wait some more for stunted tips.
    And yet none appear..........falsify the hypothesis that excess K+ inhibits Ca++ and leads to stunting. It does not say why a hobbyist has stunting anytime they add say more than 20ppm of K+ to their tank, but it does say it's due to K+, there's some other factor they are not looking at and accounting for.

    Same with Cl- levels, I had high Cl - for many years, so have others, and we had few issues compared to those folks who do not have high Cl-.
    Or the old claim of high PO4 = algae, I had high PO4, and never got algae issues and better growth than many. Others reported similar findings if they added PO4 or reported they had high PO4 as well and no algae issues.

    Do we need to add more Cl- to get better growth?
    No.
    Does it hurt?
    I see nothing within reason that suggest it does.

    Likewise, testing on Shrimps to see if they are impacted by EI dosing was done and there are many that still blame EI for shrimp deaths, while I keep on selling the infestation brood that is my shrimp colony. Hard to claim that it harms shrimp when you are selling off 50 shrimp a month from 3 different tanks using EI.
    This does not answer what causes some folks issues, but it does answer the question does EI cause issues for shrimp breeding and care.

    Spirit of testing is one thing, doing a good test that you can say anything about is another. Some seem to think they can and it's more meaningful than it really is and do not acknowledge in all honesty that there is error. That there is some stuff that they could have overlooked. I think many pass up the idea that they can rule a potential cause out, which is as important, if not more so, than the cause they where looking for initially. Few bother to rule other possible factors out. Many INSIST they have perfect CO2, or their dosing is the same etc.
    I do not make those assumption myself.

    Maybe there's something else I overlooked etc.
    All I can say is really what something is "not" fairly well.
    Later, after doing several such test, I might narrow things down to a few likely choices that I could not get a clear answer with by falsifying them.
    Then test those with better methods.
    Getting such answers takes time and repeated test, it's not a quick process.

    I've thought many things, only to have them blow up in my face later.
    This has made me much more cautious and careful. I do not have this issue with falsification, which I can be very blunt about.

    On to the next test etc.........that is the spirit of testing........let the idea/hypothesis go, prove that it is wrong. If you cannot, then accept it but only tentatively till you find some way to disprove it. If you cannot, it goes into the tentative "acceptance" box but still does not imply cause.
    I encourage folks to dig deeper if they want to test. I've seen over the years many that play and test and get nowhere fast. The same old aquarium routines offer little for testing in most cases. In more cases than not, I see dogma and myths added, not anything of knowledge and use.

    That does no one any service.
    I do not encourage that approach.





    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  6. BigFlusher

    BigFlusher Prolific Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    Pretty well stomped the crap out of anyone trying to work through stuff.

    No point.

    No pointers on how to do it better just everyone is too stupid.
     
  7. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    Pretty funny.
    As I just got some anhydrous CaCl2 from RexGrigg, I mixed it with MgSO4 powder in a container with RO water. The CaCl2 granules formed a white precipitate that took an eternity to dissolve. I was annoyed as I got CaCl2 to simplify my life dissolving it in water and gaining some time over CaSO4.

    Suddenly, I remembered this topic and my own answer to philosophos about mixing CaCl2 and MgSO4. I so tried again using CaCl2 in RO: it dissolved in few seconds completely. Then, I added the MgSO4 in full volume, no precipitae. I can then confirm that CaCl2 and MgSO4 must not be dissolved together in a small container to avoid CaSO4 precipitates. Better dissolve CaCl2 then MgSO4.
     
  8. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    What concentrations are you using?

    You may also want to observe it for a while. I've had precipitates take time to form; sometimes issues don't pop up until the next day.

    Either way, if you've got it working I wouldn't mind trying to reproduce it. Having Ca and Mg together playing nice in a stock solution would be great for a liquid GH booster without having to resort to MgCl2.
     
  9. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    Sorry, I didn't explain it well. No way to get a solution with Ca and Mg, unless you use Cl salts for both. Having a stock solution of CaCl2 and MgSO4, enough concentrated for confortable weekly dosing is a no go as CaSO4 is so poorly soluble.

    I have a 30L RO container. I add to it 1.2g of CaCl2 then 1g of MgSO4 (total 3°GH). I use 15L for the 60% WC of my tank and 15L for the nex week. At these doses in 30L, no precipitates, but I won't be able to get a 1L stock solution of them.

    Maybe MgCl2 would be a solution, but never seen it used in the hobby?
     
  10. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    There's no reason MgCl2 shouldn't work. People are already using it for rift lake salts and marine aquariums just fine.
     
  11. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    Maybe I'll give it a try once, but still have too much stocks of MgSO4. I also have a big stock of CaSO4 that I now dropped for the more soluble CaCl2.

    The only solution I see now is either using MgCl2 and CaCl2 or using separate stock solutions of MgSO4 and CaCl2. I'll go with the second for now
     
  12. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,210
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    Still Liking 40-ppm Chloride After All These Days

    Hi Jonny,

    I keep my CaCl2 as a separate stock and mix the MgSO4 with the KNO3, Na2HPO4 and NaH2PO4. :D

    For what it may or may not be worth. :rolleyes:

    Biollante
     
  13. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    Are you sure you don't get precipitates? Magnesium phosphate salt would form and precipitate as it is poorly soluble.

    I have noted that my tanks usually have enough NO3. Probably low light makes NO3 accumulate faster than with higher light, so often no need to dose, especially when WC is only once every 4 weeks. PO4 needs to be added in higher ratios though, food and plants decaying bring little PO4 it seems. Adding Mg with PO4 increases the GH. I prefere a stable GH for fish and shrimps long term maintenance. Takes more time to dose separately but I find it easier to manage depending on situations. If I was changing water every week, than no problem, but with a WC every 4 weeks, I find it trickier.
     
    #53 jonny_ftm, Mar 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2010
  14. Tiago Nicolau

    Tiago Nicolau Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Local Time:
    8:44 PM
    I loved to read all this thread :)

    Its 3 ywars old but deserves a bump,

    I too have CaCL2 and MgSo4, and dosed yesterday before reading this,

    I mixed 1,83g CaCL2 and 2,03g MgSo4 on a glass of Di water to add to my 50Lt tank to raise gH to 3, since i already have 1 gH on tap,
    i did this values since i assume the 1 dGH is all Ca, and this way i still have 4:1 ratio,
    Well what happened was that i added the salts together to a 200ml solution and there was a haze of snow all over, didnt dissolve very much and now i know why,
    What i did was drop that near the out-take lilypipe and saw a whitle soolution travel all over my tank,
    the good side was that seems i have a pretty nice circulation, the bad side was winter on my tank,
    good news are that it quickly dissolved, only taking a few minutes for the white solid flakes (now i know that they were CaSO4) to dissolve,


    So let me get this straith from what i read from this topic, and please correct me if im wrong:
    - CL- doesnt get to toxic levels that easy, using standard measures for low Gh increase,
    - Better have 2 separate solutions instead of CaCL2 with MgSO4 on the same one, dosing them one each time separately,
    - CaCL2 is better soluble if not mixed with MgSO4,

    Now what i didnt understand:
    - is it safe to add the foremensioned gH booster with macro dosage(with PO4 in it), or does Mg react with PO4?
    - If a tap water company has a tested value of 20ppm Na, does it make it dangerous for plants/fauna, or the toxic levels are yet to be found/tested?
    - why does the Gh boosters have other things other than Mg and Ca, like Fe, K, etc? is it for stability/absortion issues with the Ca and Mg, or is it only to cover any lack of dosing on them?
    - if we do the regular EI dosing, making sure we have all the other ferts available, do we need to add the extra K with the CaCL2+MgSo4 gH booster?
    - this one is from what i observed yesterday: my tap has a 8 kH, but after i dosed the CaCL2+MgSo4, i tested my kH and it was at 2, is it possible that the added Ca binded with CO3, thus decreasing kH and increasing GH?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice