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Broken Image Links in EI Post and Rotala Butterfly Calculator

Discussion in 'Estimative Index' started by DreamKnight, Oct 30, 2016.

  1. DreamKnight

    DreamKnight Subscriber

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    I often refer back to the EI index post but I find that the missing image links kinda disappointing as it refers to charts that aren't there. Is there an article or something posted that has the images?


    For the rotala butterfly calculator, how accurate is that? I'm reading for a 20g to dose 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week in this article (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/15225-estimative-index-dosing-guide.html) and the Rotala Butterfly Calculator telling me to dose 1/64 tsp 3x a week.


    I know it's "estimative" but that's kinda a jump. Should I be going by the calculator or what the articles like this one says? Over at his calculator (https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/aquarium/calculators/ei_calculator/) it's telling me to dose at 1/16tsp.


    I'm just trying to find the right place to start and then be able to adjust from that. But... that's the tricky part, is to find the right place to start with all the conflicting information.


    13 years ago I was doing PPMD. Getting back into it again and found that Tom has coming up with the EI so really wanting to start with that as a baseline and then go from there.


    Thanks,


    Chung
     
  2. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Yes, EI is pretty "estimative", but I would rely on the calculator for a more precise dosing.
     
  3. DreamKnight

    DreamKnight Subscriber

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    OK thanks. I'm starting to get a lot of it now after a couple months of banging my head on it. I was a little confused with all the stupid excessive conflicting info out there but I just keep coming back to what is said here as it seems at least Tom does his research instead of some guy screaming how right he is because his grandmother said so. Sorry, it's been a freaking frustrating ride so far getting back into all this. I was reading and following Mr. Barr 13 years ago in the newsgroups and I'm just going to try and keep is focused with his advice on here.


    Chung
     
  4. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    You are very welcome. EI should be thought to be "very flexible". As Tom said a thousand times: "it is not written in stone" :)


    Let us know your results!
     
  5. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    Can we get urea under compounds, i have no idea how much to dose
     
  6. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    I can definitely add that, but I'd need the composition of urea... And what would be its optimal concentration in PPM per dose?
     
  7. Jason King

    Jason King barrreport.com
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    Hi Dennis Sure do you know the composition of urea and what is its optimal concentration?
     
  8. Jason King

    Jason King barrreport.com
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    Oops seems fab replied at the same time :)
     
  9. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    All i know is that its 46% nitrogen content, rest of it i do not know. Thats what it says on the bag. And its optimal concentration, i do not think anyone knows, but it must be a lot lot lower than KNO3 cause its ammonia and will melt plants, I'm guessing same concentration as ada aqua soil amazonia to go off of. I would always just dose a pinch myself...Sorry couldn't help you help me
     
  10. rajkm

    rajkm Article Editor
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    Urea - CO(NH2)2


    N - 46.65%
     
  11. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    What we'd really need is the "concentration by mass". Fore example, the data for Kno3 is the following:


    NO3: 0.6133


    N: 0.138539


    K: 0.3867


    We'd need that kind of information for urea as well... I made some research on the web, and what I could find is just its molar mass which is 60.06 g·mol, but I am not a chemist and I don't now how to extrapolate data like above! Who of us knows this stuff??!
     
  12. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    Is this of any use?
     
  13. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks Strungout, I read through it but I can't make a sense of the data... we'd need someone expert in chemistry?
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Urea can be dosed, particularly if you lack fish and do not feed them. Or perhaps you like the new ADA As growth. You should not dose more than about 0.8ppm per day of NH4 based ferts. I doubt most any tank would need more than that amount.
     
  15. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Fantastic rajkm! I see if I can work the calculator later today with those numbers and see what results we get.
     
  16. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks Tom, that's useful info. So, shall we target 0.8ppm max daily for the N value of urea? I am not sure it'll work that way... but I can try to include all this data into the calculator and see what results we get.
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Well, as NH4 anyway, or total N if you urea. Urea added to water does what exactly?


    I will let you look that up. Also, what is the solubility?


    My target is based on what I know about aquatic plants and toxicity of the NH4.


    Some will get attacked by bacteria as well. But some should make it to the plants, or bind in the sediment.


    The rest will get used as NO3 later.


    I think folks use to do this years ago, not sure anyone really does it much these days at 0.4 to 0.8ppm ranges daily.


    I used mostly NH4Cl and (NH4)2SO4. I got algae often times, most of the time, but with high light and not enough CO2, well.........


    I can likely do this today without issues.


    My issue was looking at algae responses.


    But it was more CO2 related factors.


    NH4 itself did not cause the algae blooms.


    Independent of other factors.


    Adding a little bit of fresh ADA AS can provide the same effect also.


    Or you can siphon out say 10-20% of the ADA AS, then add fresh with no ill effects.


    2-4 more months, do it again.


    That's one possible routine, or you can add it to a dosing liquid for the water column.
     
  18. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Thanks Tom for additional details, I have added urea to the calculator, but I am not sure the results are correct. I will have to tweak it probably... if anyone can test it, please, let me know... thanks.
     
  19. Dennis Singh

    Dennis Singh SynKing!

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    rotala butterfly is down for me, it said something about using cookies. it's down on my phone and web
     
  20. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Still working on the site, Fab?


    FWIW - I add 1/4 tsp of Urea to my 180 daily. Not sure what that does, if anything. My guess is that it gets processed by the filters mostly. Plants probably get a little.


    I do it because I don't have a lot of fish and barely feed them.
     
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