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Boyd's Chemi-Clean

Discussion in 'Algae Control' started by imatrout, Jul 27, 2005.

  1. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Does anybody have experience with Boyd's Chemi-Clean for killing Cyano bacteria? The Marine/Reef people swear by this product and claim it kills Cyano very effectively with zero impact on sensitive reef creatures. I looked on some of the forums to see if anybody had used it on freshwater and sure enough I found somebody who had used it with miraculous results.

    Does anybody have experience with this stuff? They do not list ingredients on the package (trade secret), but claim a partial water changes is required after treatment. I am beginning to be frustrated with Cyano traces in my tank and really want to get it out without tearing down and sterilizing the tank.

    Thanks all!
     
  2. happychem

    happychem Junior Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    A three day blackout followed by a 50% water change and dosing of KNO3 works wonders on BGA. No need to tear down and sanitize.

    The algae keeps coming back - or maintaining traces - because something in your tank (likely low NO3) is off.

    I've never used this product, but some time quite a while ago I was struggling with cyanobacteria, getting frustrated and was considering EM. Tom posted something in my frustration thread that pretty much summed up algae control in a nutshell.

    Paraphrasing:
    "Approach your treatment from a plant health perspective. Will EM help plant growth? No. Is BGA there due to an absence of EM? No."

    So I'd say the same about this product, it's a short term cure. Unless you set your water params. right, it'll just come back.
     
  3. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Thanks for the feedback. I have been trying to keep it away through balanced nutrients. My NO3 never drops below 15 ppm and my CO2 is in the 30 ppm range. Cyano is not an algae so I think you can keep it from growing, but once it's there, you have to get it out somehow. Balanced ferts won't remove it, just keeps it from occurring or growiing. I have used blackout effectively too, but was just wondering about this product. The marine and reef crowd swear by it and claim it is safe for the most delicate reef organisms. I called the manufacturer and actually talked to Mr. Boyd who told me it was effective and safe, but would not say what was in it.
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Well here goes all the marine folk's trade secrets, it's EM.

    Yep, the same stuff we use but the marine and reef suckers will pay.
    Antiobiotics.

    Doesn't hurt any of our fish or inverts or filter bacteria either now does it?
    I solved about dozen BGA issues for the LA marine reef club's group.

    In other words, I also do marine tanks and know the algae very well.

    You have 2 very effective methods to kill it already, you can look for EM in several other formulations and listen to these fools talk about their trade secrets, or you can use common sense and testing and reviews that have already been done and shown to be effective.

    Stay away from chemical means to control algae, they waste your time.
    Stick with manaual removal, maybe blackout, UV for a few spoecies, then make sure to have good environmental stable conditions.

    That is all this requires.
    Blackouts work equally as well with Marine tanks FYI as well as KNO3.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. FrankG

    FrankG Junior Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Tom,

    On their website, they state explicitly that it is not EM. I quote from their product description:
    I remember that I read on another website (cannot find it at the moment) that a guy suspected it might be a highly concentrated carbohydrate (maybe something like dissolved brown sugar or apple juice) that makes the cyanos (and maybe the nitrifying bacteria) work overtime and devour itself. What do think about that theory? What adverse effects would it have if you added half a teaspoon of brown sugar to a 20 gallen tank?

    BTW, your blackout/KNO3 method has worked for me flawlessly, so why change? But if you told me this brown sugar method might be worth a try and work without the blackout, I might try it next time those suckers show up in one of my tanks. After all, a teaspoon of brown sugar is not much more expensive than a blackout :D

    Regards,
    Frank
     
  6. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Again, we are talking about Cyano, not algae. I have no algae in my tank at all. My NO3 and CO2 levels are consistent and spot on. I got this because I turned off my CO2 while changing the filter element and forgot to turn in back on for almost 48 hrs. Once you have it (Cyano) it won't go away with proper water parameters. You can only halt it's progress. Once you have it, you need to eradicate it somehow. Blackouts work. I know, because I've tried it. I want to try something other than covering my tank for 3 days. A poster on APC used this stuff and it completely got rid of his Cyano with no adverse effects on plants or fish or other water conditions. It is NOT and antibiotic and contains no phosphates. I'm looking to see if there are others out there with actual experience using this specific product in frewshwater planted tanks.
     
  7. reiverix

    reiverix Lifetime Members
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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    If your tank conditions are optimal, you have waited a little while for those optimal conditions to kill the cyano and you are looking for something other than a blackout, then I imagine there is really only one way to find out. Sounds like you want a green light, so I'll give you one...

    Go for it.

    Is it possible for you to replicate your tank conditions in another smaller tank, taking your water, some fauna, proper lighting ratio, substrate, some plants and some of the cyno and then apply the product? It may not be an exact testing condition, but at least it will let you know if it turns your plants to mud or mutates the cyno into walking, incredible-hulk-cyano.

    How difficult is it to remove it by hand? If you have stabilized your conditions and actually halted it's growth, then it sounds like manual removal, if possible, would solve the problem or reduce it to non-noticeable status.

    I'm just taking a different angle because what you've gotten here so far doesn't seem to be satisfactory.
     
  8. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Random:

    You are absolutely right....almost. I'm not looking for a green light because I already pulled the trigger and used it last night. I was kind of sniffing around for some reassurance. I will let you all know how it worked and any adverse effects.
     
  9. FrankG

    FrankG Junior Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Hi,

    I would be very interested in the results. I still believe if we knew what the ingredients are, it would be easier to figure out what the consequences might be. After reading the description on their website again, I am even more convinced that it is some sort of highly concentrated carbohydrate. Carbs are essentially food for bacteria, which causes them to increase their activity and - - - use more oxygen. Maybe that is the reason why they strongly suggest to use an airstone.
    So maybe the brown sugar in fact works - for a fraction of the price. :D

    Regards,
    Frank
     
  10. matpat

    matpat Prolific Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    They say it doesn not contain "Erythromycin succinate". I feel this may be a marketing ploy by the maker to try and lure us into the product since they do not mention any of the other types of Erythromycin that it could be.

    From way back in my pharmacy days I remember there being several types of "salts" for erythromycin:

    erythromycin base (no salt)
    erythromycin estolate
    erythromycin ethylsuccinate
    erythromycin lactobionate
    erythromycin stearate

    Of the five types (that I remember) the only type of EM they say it isn't is erythromycin succinate. It could easily be one of the other salts of this drug. They never claimed that it wasn't :)
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Well adding H2O2 will also kill BGA and a few other algae.

    I looked at the product.
    It's good for milder cases of BGA.

    I can get rid of most infestations of BGa without using Blackouts.........
    Simply doing a good cleaning, large water change and cranking the CO2 thereafter+ doing a good dosing.

    But if the case is sereve, or the BGA is infesting the vegetative cones of the plants....then I go with a BO.

    But this entire product of algae cures really is a waste of everyone's time, they will always be a waste of your time and not allow you to focus on the real issue: poor plant growth.

    A very simple question to ask yourself: does it grow plants? If not, do not not add it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Folks say, "well maybe it'll work, i just need something to get me over this hump."

    Oooo, I've had this discussion for decades.........
    That's the rationalization of "the desperate...."

    Don't fear, I did the same thing way back when. But you, nor I need to even bother with this stuff at this point.........

    I was a sucker and so were many folks back then and folks arwe better informed today, but they still monkey puke snake oils which really don't solve the real issue, poor plant growth.

    Algae grow for defined reasons.
    We also are growing plants for a hobby, not killing algae as a hobby, although a few have made a serious go at algae killing as a hobby in and of it's self.

    Save your $$$$$, do not ever buy algicides of any type.

    Now why would I tell you all that? Lack of experiences trying algicides out? Not hardly, I test and evaluate herbicides professionally and am quite good at it. I also played with algicides for about a decade extensively.

    A new one comes down the pipe every few years.
    The peroxide based products have a specific carbonate for of H2O2 in dry granular form.

    We use it at a higher concentration to kill weeds, but it kills birds and other critters. Not just weeds, but folks have some use specific cases that it can be used. The by products are what make peroxides useful. They might have a chloride of oxides, but it's still a strong oxidizer, like O3, H2O2, permangnate(which will also kill BBA as well as BGA at the right concentrations) etc.

    But these things cost money and are sold to the desperate.
    The BO works 100% of the time if you follow the method, make sure you completely cover the tank and clean well before and after, no chemical or pill will clean your tank or dose properly for you, so you tell me which idea and method is better..........

    You can still EM which is proven to work with no adverse effects if for some strange reason you are unable to turn the lights out(no one has ever stated a reason why they cannot do this, at least a rational reason)

    I give folks a free method that addresses the long term and cause/solution and folks still...............find ways around it and spend $$ on stuff they simply do not ever need.

    I still scratch my head on this one............

    Look any time you get the urge to buy an algicide, just email me whatever the cost of the product. I'll work through it with you and get rid of the algae with you and keep it gone. Your tank will look better as a result, better than product will make it.

    I've had every algae myself and have cured more folk's tanks in this hobby of algae/BGA than any algicide ever will or has.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  12. FrankG

    FrankG Junior Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Hi Tom,

    Thanks for the answer. I agree with you 100%. However, there are a few comments and open questions:

    Well, someone reported BGA in a paludarium with lots of emersed plants. It would be nightmare to cover this tank.

    The other open question:
    As I mentioned, somebody said this particular algicide might be a highly concentrated carbohydrate. You do not need to buy this then, but could use brown sugar, for example (that would even be less $$$$ than the trashbags you have get for the BO). What would that do besides stimulating bacteria growth?

    Thanks,
    Frank
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Frank, we use sucrose for tissue culture anc cold storage of plant samples to let the plants fed on something if they are in the dark for a long peroid.

    BGA's would benefit I would suspect, but I do not think they possess sucrase, the enzyme that cleaves the Fuctose glucose bond, they might......

    But folks have added sugar to their tanks in the past, this does no harm to the plants or fish.

    Whether it kills the BGA, remains to be seen.

    So you'd need to culture BGA, maintain it and get it actively growing, then add the sugar etc at a chosen concentration to see.

    It's not a hard test or anything, but few are willing to see it through.

    I honestly don't care in terms of horticulture, but the genus of BGA you can look up and see if it can use sucrose or not. I have a very effective free tool to kill any BGA infestation, one good tool is simple and all I need.

    The rest is environmental conditions (KNO3, decent filter cleaning, excess mulm removal etc) which are much more inmportant to the long term success of any horticultural approach.

    We grow plants, so the focus is always there, not killing algae and learning about their tolernaces.

    The less you stress the plants, the better.
    That's where our efforts are much better suited rather than wasting time evaluating every algicide that comes down the pipe.

    You, the newbie, the intermediate plantie will all figure this out and not waste so much of your time with it later........

    I've never been one to lead anyone astray, been at it a long time, successfully cured more folk's algae issues than perhaps anyone in recent times. I have nice tanks that are algae free for many years.

    Take the advice, stay away from any algicide.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr




    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Just giving a status of Boyd's Chemi-clean. It worked great. I did the first dose and there were noticable results within 24 hours. I let it go 36 hours and there were still a little BGA. I did a second dose and let it sit 36 hours and now there is no trace of BGA in the tank. After the second dose, I did a 60% water change and reset the macros. Plants are happy and fish are happy.

    I know that BGA will return if I goof up and let my CO2 of N fall considerably, but I have to say this stuff works at removing traces. Though I don't know what's in the product, there's been no "apparant" harm to anything. The product was not really cheap, but much easier than a blackout (and I don't have to go 3 days without seeing my tank). If anything to the contrary arises, I'll inform you all, but I view this as a success.
     
  15. reiverix

    reiverix Lifetime Members
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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Great!

    Hope the tank health holds.
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Do not take this personally,
    How is anything easier than a blackout?
    That does not follow, you cover the tank and wait, is that difficult?
    That will knock back any trace bits of BGA as well, without any water changes, but still add the KNO3, turn off CO2.

    We suggest water changes when there is a lot of BGA. Trace amounts are easy to beat back without hardly any work(at least to kill it).

    I do not think you folks that use these things are getting the point here.
    You still had to go buy this, you paid for it, then you had to do the directions, then you had to wait.

    The only advantage is that you could see the tank all the time during treatment.

    You'll never beat algae over the long term using these products though ..........next up will be one that you cannot get rid of with this product.

    Then what?

    The advice I give is specific for the long term and the short term, it also, unlike anything any algicide will provide, helps to improve plant health and growth.

    Some argue that both the algicide used in conjuction with good conditions will help, .......... no, good conditions alone and a few simple things will knock all the algae you may have very rapidly.

    Plants grow very fast with good conditions, pruning and water changes knocks off the rest.

    Chemicals do not do trimming nor maintain and clean dirt out of your tank, there is no laziness pill.

    It's the same old thing 1000 x here with regards to algae, do the work. If you desire less work, go non CO2.

    A tank that has good maintenance shows. No chemical will replace that.

    I've heard every sort of arguement for these products and have pounded many into the ground over the years.

    But they all miss the point, they do not help your original issue, nor get you any closer to solving that issue, nor maker your tank look better outside of the algae removal. It actually side tracks you and waste time much better spent doing work on the tank that you should have been doing to begin with.............


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Tom,
    You are preaching to the converted. I realize this stuff is not a "cure" and I realize that you can keep it away by fertilizing and keeping abundant CO2 in the tank. I got this by accident when I left my CO2 tank off for two days. Once you have it and want to rid it, yes a Blackout will work great. This is just an alternative that (you said it) you get to see working. Also, when you do a balckout, some plants stretch their growth while in the dark looking for light. The result after 3 days in the dark is no algae, but long leggy stem plants. Just an alterantive...that's all.
     
  18. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Sorry there:)

    I'm passionate about not having folks go down this route for a few other reasons.

    Many like to try things and that's good. If they really like that they will want to do experiments, they are quite simple and you learn far more.

    I've honestly never learned anything about growing plants using herbicides that kill algae. Well, other than how to show they don't work nor address the real issue.

    I've also never learned anything about the algae and why they grew in my tanks either by using algicides.

    So................if learning and getting a nicer plant tank is the focus......they really are a wasted effort and $$.

    Yea, they can kill a few algae, so can many things, we have no lack of algicides....hwat we did have a huge lack of when I got into the web hobby on line was any understanding about why the algae where growing.

    Today we have come a logn way, GS=> low CO2/PO4, BBA=> low CO2, BGA=> low NO3/poor cleaning habits/too many fish, GW=> urea, too many fish, NH4 etc, Staghorn=> urea/NH4, most every algae out there is well known as to what ansd why it occurs, and the occurance is more accurate at analysis of the tank than a test kit....................

    I would have never figured any of these issues out over the years if I was big on algicides.......................and did not have the philosophy I have about algicides.

    Few folks are as anti algicide as I am, but I've gone down quite a different path and have ended up helping far more folks as a result.

    People focus on plant health much more and very little on algicides compared to 10-15 years ago, heck, that's all they talked about. I thought we'd never figure out anything back then, but one by one, the algae have fallen.

    It is why the methods I use are successful, it is why I can cure most folks algae issues, it is why my tanks look good to me.

    I know of a device that will kill all algae and not harm plants, it's not chemical either, it is a silver bullet if you will, but it's a rather costly and only suited for larger tanks. But it does work, but still, it does not grow plants............

    But I apologize for getting heated and passionate about it, I've been trying to get folks to stay away from algicides for a long time now, it is never anything personal nor directed towards anyone person etc, my passionate for killing algae starts before the alga have a chance:)

    Same with aquatic weeds.


    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  19. imatrout

    imatrout Prolific Poster

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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Tom,

    I love your passion and I respect your knowledge. That's what lured me here and that's what keeps me here. Nothing personal taken. Passionate discourse is the basis of learning and I know I can always find that here.....especially about algaecide! :D
     
  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Re: Boyd's Chemi-Clean

    Well, having the history laid out helps get some prespective.

    As Bob Marely once said: "You can't know where you are going unless you know where have come from........."

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
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