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blow up plants due...

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by TheKillHaa, Feb 4, 2010.

  1. TheKillHaa

    TheKillHaa Prolific Poster

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    hi,,
    this was one of these days.
    i'been running a large 60 gal heavily planted acuarium with a lot of many different dose regimes, all variants on EI.
    but something suddenly went wrong.. i would like to know what is the root or roots of this issue.

    first,,Co2 was on its way to be depleted, reducing the amount of bubbles, but i keep increasing the knob to check proper rate of bubbles. only during light period. (6x54w T5HO)
    today around 1pm was completely gone.
    there was only 3 fishes there, two angels and one tetra.. all died today morning.
    but when i return from cinemas... there was a ocurring even more problems.
    plants turn white/transparent while i was eating popcorns..

    i test NO3... +100 ppm! (very dark wine color from api)
    po4 around 1.5ppm
    fe around 0.1ppm
    (today was the change water day for this aquarium)

    i use those levels of NO3 sometimes on my undersun aquariums for plants.. but not indoors. The dose i calculate for this 60 gal was for sure not working as usual.. 22gr of KNO3 on 2 days.. im work close to the edge, i know, but i keep my scissors very sharp ;)

    here a couple of picts of my more significant issue with lindernia rotundifolia variegated..
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    this was turn as pictured on hours..
    i've already perfom a 90% water change.

    was high no3 enough to turn white the plants? combination of high light, high no3, no co2?
     
  2. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    22g of KNO3 in what's probably about 193L column will give about 70ppm NO3. I could see this killing fish if it doubled up to 140ppm; the ecotox database lists some LC50's that seem to agree.

    Odds are though, it's an end of tank CO2 dump and the CO2 fluctuations have stressed your plants along with gassing your fish. You'll want a new regulator, or a close eye on your pressure.
     
  3. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    What kind of regulator are you using? The milwaukee ones are notorious for end of tank dumping, but any single stage unit seems to be likely to do so. This is not usually an issue with a good dual stage unit.

    Do you know what your pH was when you found the dead fish?

     
  4. TheKillHaa

    TheKillHaa Prolific Poster

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    if im not wrong, that is a milwakee,, and has two gauges, that means two stages,, right??.
    the system has three needle valves with bubble counters. I dont have the measure of ph.. Drop checker stay in green ... yellowish sometimes.
    my guess is the selenoid,,, haz probably need some lubrication. I remember now three days ago, there was about .5 bbps after one hr. was "shutted down" . My hipotesis because i keep open and open needle valves, the seleoid open all at once suddenly... And i have a reactor that can get huge amount of co2... 4" diam, 3' long abs tube, used workinf haz mech filter and co2 dissolver.. So fish death could be.. Yes, co2.

    but to be honest.. Im a plant guy.. Not fish buddy.... So i care more about what happenning to the plants to turn withe_transparent like this. Im not thinking to put more fishes there until fix the co2 issues.
    thanks.!
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    It is the CO2.

    KNO3 is just not that toxic.
    Plants are routinely grown in hydrop0nic ppms, which is 210 to 230ppm of NO3, sometimes higher due to evaporation of the water.
    Most aquatic plant growers use such solutions sprayed directly onto plants.

    I've had fish act very strange at the end of tanks in the past.

    Do yourself a favor, buy a high grade dual stage regulator, then a nice Swagelok SS valve with a vernier handle.
    Then the CO2 will not be too much of an issues. Also, change the CO2 bottle once it drops about 30-40% the tank pressure.

    Do not wait for the very last bit to taper off to the bitter end.

    Cheap CO2 equipment and cheap needle valves are no good for people.
    You can watch things closely and still have issues.

    I say go as high grade as you can with the CO2 equipment.

    Ebay has lots of good stuff at a low reasonable price. Not sure if it will fit the CO2 tanks where you live, but I'm sure you can find some on line used or cheaper.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  6. shoggoth43

    shoggoth43 Lifetime Charter Member
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    There's a thread on here from Left C somewhere about the dual stage requlators. From his post:

    "TWO STAGE regulators reduce the source pressure down to the desired delivery pressure in two steps. Each stage consists of a spring, diaphragm, and control valve. The first stage reduces the inlet pressure to about three times the maximum working pressure. The final pressure reduction occurs in the second stage. The advantage of a dual stage regulator is its ability to deliver a constant pressure, even with a decrease in inlet pressure. For example, as a cylinder of gas is depleted, the cylinder pressure drops. Under these conditions, single stage regulators exhibit a “decaying inlet characteristic”; where the delivery pressure increases as a result of the decrease in inlet pressure. In a two stage regulator, the second stage compensates for this increase, providing a constant delivery pressure regardless of inlet pressure conditions. The dual stage regulator is recommended for applications where a continuous supply of gas is required; such as the gas supplied to analytical instruments where constant delivery pressure is critical.

    SINGLE STAGE regulators perform the same function as the two stage regulator using a single step reduction of source to outlet pressure. For this reason, the outlet pressure cannot be as accurately controlled as the source pressure decays. We highly recommend single stage regulators only be used in circumstances where the operator can monitor and adjust the regulator as needed or where the regulator is supplied a nearly constant source pressure."

    And the full link to it... http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6470-Dual-Stage-Regulators



    If this was an End-Of-Tank-Dump then you essentially put whatever remaining CO2 in your bottle into the tank in one giant shot as opposed to slowly running out of CO2. This would have dropped the pH dramatically. Essentially you gave your plants and fish an acid bath. The plants will likely eventually recover, but you're probably starting over on the bacteria side so expect some tank cycling woes. I don't recall if the Milwaukee regulator literature mentions EOTD. Dual stage regulators generally have no special requirements when changing tanks either. Just pull them and replace them. Single stage units can require some special sequence to prevent damage. I HIGHLY recommend a dual stage unit. If you don't want to assemble it yourself via Left C's thread, Rex Grigg and SuMo are excellent choices but they are premium units.

    -
    S
     
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