BBA bout!

fablau

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Sorry Rob, I missed your question: I sealed my wet/dry chamber with the idea of wasting less Co2, but I have realized just now that by doing that I lose one of the benefits of the wet/dry which is oxygenation :)


By the way, I haven't completely solved my BBA issue, it is still around despite it is growing at a much slower peace... I will wait another couple of weeks, and if the situation doesn't improve I will take additional action... Thanks!
 

fablau

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You are welcome Rob! The fact is.... BBA is back! Too bad... It has been gone for well 2 weeks since my setup change documented in my posts above, but 3 days ago re-appeared again on my slow growers and now it looks back to normal! So sad! The fact is: I see some of my plants suffering some kind of possibile micros deficiency - or toxicity as I am discussing on another thread - (probably) because some tips look stunted (Rotalas and Althernathera), and the causality that both BBA and stunted tips appeared at the same time, makes me think there might be some correlation.... Do you think that a micros deficiency could be one of the causes of BBA appearance?
 

Apprentice

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Hi Fablau. I checked out you post on dosing. If using wets calculator on e.i. daily you should have .2 ppm on Fe for CSM+B. As far as the possible error on wets calc. for daily vs low light the reason they are the same is the low light is dosed just one day a week every other week.


I would up your micro dosing to get .2 Fe. If the stunting on the leaf tip white or pale yellow this could be Fe deficiency. Still Co2 deficiency can look the same. I am kinda leaning towards Co2 due to it happening rather quickly. Micro nutrient deficiencies usually take some time to show up.


Don't think your BBA issue is primarily nutrient based. It may be exasperated by it, but main cause is Co2.


I looked at the specs on your tank and some are similar to mine. PAR and EI dosing.


I have about half the plant mass you do. A lot of ground cover HC and DHG. The rest of my plants moderate to slow growers. Anubius, bolbitis, bacopa monnieri, fissidens and hydrocotyle sibthorpioides. Your tank has more plant mass and fast growing stems. My Co2 is usually about 40 to 45 PPM. I am thinking you could stand to up Co2 a bit higher. What is your current PH drop? Mine is about 1.2 to 1.3.


Regards, Rob
 
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fablau

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Thanks Rob for your reply. Well, I think to be ok with Co2, I have over 1.4 PH drop (from 7.7 to 6.3-6.2). I pump over 70ml Co2 per minute. I think that's enough. What are your thoughts? Thanks!


Fab.
 

Apprentice

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You may have enough Co2. 1.4 PH drop was my max. At 1.5 fish showed distress and at 1.6 my largest tetra did a barrel role to bottom of tank. Homer Simpson moment ( AAAHH Crap!) turned off Co2 and 75% water change. After all was well.


So I would still consider if you are close to your max considering faster growth stems and higher plant mass.


Noticed on your other post you dose Po4 at about 1.3 PPM once a week if I am reading it correctly. Seems low to me. Do you have PO4 in your water supply or get additional PO4 from food or live stock? I dose daily at about .6 ppm about 4.2 weekly. Use about half that according to testing at end of week. No issues from excess. If PO4 is low may want to up dosing.


Have you upped your CSM+B to get .2 FE? If not may also help.


Is your BBA only appearing on damaged leaves? Any on substrate, gravel or hard scape?


If only on plant leaves that are old and or damaged/deficient may be combination of recent changes to flow and some leaves not doing well due to nutrient deficiency. I would check and confirm dosing on traces and PO4. If those are all in line after that Co2 is all that remains.


As far as Co2 if nutrients are good then maybe raise levels? Consider plant growth/ mass. More plant equals more Co2 demand.


More mass may block flow of nutrients and Co2 to other plants. Maybe a good trim is in order?


I would start with nutrients just to eliminate from equation. After that if still issue then Co2 is all that is left. Co2 will have only three issues. Flow, levels, and consistency. Let me know what you think and provide any details I may have missed.


Regards, Rob
 
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fablau

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Apprentice said:
Hi Fablau. I checked out you post on dosing. If using wets calculator on e.i. daily you should have .2 ppm on Fe for CSM+B. As far as the possible error on wets calc. for daily vs low light the reason they are the same is the low light is dosed just one day a week every other week.

Rob, I forgot to reply about the Wet's calculator issue... well, the low-light suggested dosing should "once a week"... but even with that, the proportion is not correct. Let's take as an example dosing for a 75gl tank (as my own tank), just dry dosing to make it simple (but the same inconsistency appears with the "a solution" option):


KNO3 dry dosing for 75gl, EI daily: 1.481 g


KNO3 dry dosing for 75gl, EI low-light weekly: 4.629 g KH2PO4


KH2PO4


KH2PO4 dry dosing for 75gl, EI daily: 244 mg


KH2PO4 dry dosing for 75gl, EI low-light weekly: 406 mg


Plantex CSM+B dry dosing for 75gl, EI daily: 869 mg


Plantext CSM+B dry dosing for 75g, EI low-light weekly: 869 mg


As you can see, whereas for macros the amount of dosing between daily and low-light weekly dosing varies proportionally, for CSM+B the dosing is exactly the same!! Something must be wrong :(
 

fablau

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Apprentice said:
You may have enough Co2. 1.4 PH drop was my max. At 1.5 fish showed distress and at 1.6 my largest tetra did a barrel role to bottom of tank. Homer Simpson moment ( AAAHH Crap!) turned off Co2 and 75% water change. After all was well.

So I would still consider if you are close to your max considering faster growth stems and higher plant mass.


Noticed on your other post you dose Po4 at about 1.3 PPM once a week if I am reading it correctly. Seems low to me. Do you have PO4 in your water supply or get additional PO4 from food or live stock? I dose daily at about .6 ppm about 4.2 weekly. Use about half that according to testing at end of week. No issues from excess. If PO4 is low may want to up dosing.


Have you upped your CSM+B to get .2 FE? If not may also help.


Is your BBA only appearing on damaged leaves? Any on substrate, gravel or hard scape?


If only on plant leaves that are old and or damaged/deficient may be combination of recent changes to flow and some leaves not doing well due to nutrient deficiency. I would check and confirm dosing on traces and PO4. If those are all in line after that Co2 is all that remains.


As far as Co2 if nutrients are good then maybe raise levels? Consider plant growth/ mass. More plant equals more Co2 demand.


More mass may block flow of nutrients and Co2 to other plants. Maybe a good trim is in order?


I would start with nutrients just to eliminate from equation. After that if still issue then Co2 is all that is left. Co2 will have only three issues. Flow, levels, and consistency. Let me know what you think and provide any details I may have missed.


Regards, Rob

As you can see from my tank picture in the postings before, it is pretty "heavy-planted".... I couldn't think more mass than that in my 75gl tank. So, plant-mass shouldn't be an issue. Trimming is done every 2 weeks, therefore "too much growth" also could be an issue only at the end of the 2-weeks period, before trimming... but the BBA problem is present pretty much all the time.


About PO4, yes, I dose that amount a week for now, and I am monitoring, but looks enough for the whole week. I may want to add an extra dose once a month or so... but anyway, PO4 is there around 3-4ppm, so I should have enough (tested with reference solutions).


BBA appears mostly on slow-growing plants and old leaves as you were saying, but also on some driftwood.


Now, I am working to overrule a possible lack of traces by doubling the dose I was giving before, so I am currently giving the "EI daily" recommended dose which gives 0.2ppm of Fe daily. At the same time I am monitoring macros for a possible increased intake. For sure my plants are suffering for something, but I personally tend to discard Co2 as possible main cause, I have tried everything Co2 side (throttle it up to PH drop of 1.6, leaving it on the entire day, being sure it is stable during photoperiod, corrected flow being sure there are not dead spots, etc.). I have begun double trace dosing 3 days ago, so it is probably still too early to notice any difference (for now, no difference than before).


I plan to keep the double micros dosing until the end of the week and watch closely plants to see if anything changes. If there are negative signs, I will re-asses the situation at the next WC due this coming Saturday, otherwise I will keep this dosing for another couple of weeks, monitoring macros as well. I will keep you posted, thank you for your advice and talk you soon!
 

Apprentice

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Hi Fablau. EI light can be dosed every week, three weeks miss 1 week, or every other week. Guidelines are pretty loose. Even on regular EI Mr. Barr will say not written in stone.


I found a few excerpts from original post (http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/non-co2-methods/2936-non-co2-methods) that may explain why trace ratios same in Wets Calc. for EI daily vs EI light.

Going back and assuming 80-90% of the nutrients will come from the fish load, I added once a week KNO3/KH2PO4.

I suggest onyx sand as it added Ca, Mg, and Fe, and I add mulm/detritus freshly from another established tank to add bacteria and cycle the tank immediately.

These are some of the original dosing amounts from that thread.


KNO3


1/16 teaspoon = 2.63 PPM


PO4


1/32 teaspoon = 1.321 PPM


Seachem Equilibrium Trace FE


1/4 teaspoon= 0.02 PPM


Original post supposed supplemental sources of NPK and traces. I believe Wet just adjusted up minus the supplemental input. All the ratios are different. Wet is a member of this forum. I would guess some input from Mr. Barr was included. I would think if there was an issue someone (or Tom Barr) would have PMed him by now.


If you were planning on using EI light on another tank I wouldn't worry. I have been using both Ei daily and EI light for my non co2 tanks for about 4 to 5 years. So far both work fine for me with no issues. Ratios have been the same since I have used calculator.
 

Apprentice

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As you can see from my tank picture in the postings before, it is pretty "heavy-planted".... I couldn't think more mass than that in my 75gl tank. So, plant-mass shouldn't be an issue. Trimming is done every 2 weeks, therefore "too much growth" also could be an issue only at the end of the 2-weeks period, before trimming... but the BBA problem is present pretty much all the time.

Back to your tank. I wasn't implying to much mass overall or you needed more.. Just that if say Co2 adjusted after trim, Then say later plants double in size or even triple before you next trim will use more Co2. If no adjustments and plants not trimmed, result lower Co2. If trim regularly then not issue.

About PO4, yes, I dose that amount a week for now, and I am monitoring, but looks enough for the whole week. I may want to add an extra dose once a month or so... but anyway, PO4 is there around 3-4ppm, so I should have enough (tested with reference solutions).

PO4 seems good. Check that off the list.

Now, I am working to overrule a possible lack of traces by doubling the dose I was giving before, so I am currently giving the "EI daily" recommended dose which gives 0.2ppm of Fe daily. At the same time I am monitoring macros for a possible increased intake. For sure my plants are suffering for something, but I personally tend to discard Co2 as possible main cause, I have tried everything Co2 side (throttle it up to PH drop of 1.6, leaving it on the entire day, being sure it is stable during photoperiod, corrected flow being sure there are not dead spots, etc.). I have begun double trace dosing 3 days ago, so it is probably still too early to notice any difference (for now, no difference than before).

Your probably right. Take at least a couple of weeks to see improvement.


Fablau, what do you think about maybe one of us suggesting having Tank profiles like some other sites have? Might come in handy for threads like this. Tanks specs, dosing water parameters, etc. Let me know what you think? Keep updating on status. Hopefully progress! ;)


Regards, Rob
 

fablau

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Apprentice said:
Hi Fablau. EI light can be dosed every week, three weeks miss 1 week, or every other week. Guidelines are pretty loose. Even on regular EI Mr. Barr will say not written in stone.

I found a few excerpts from original post (http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/non-co2-methods/2936-non-co2-methods) that may explain why trace ratios same in Wets Calc. for EI daily vs EI light.


These are some of the original dosing amounts from that thread.


KNO3


1/16 teaspoon = 2.63 PPM


PO4


1/32 teaspoon = 1.321 PPM


Seachem Equilibrium Trace FE


1/4 teaspoon= 0.02 PPM


Original post supposed supplemental sources of NPK and traces. I believe Wet just adjusted up minus the supplemental input. All the ratios are different. Wet is a member of this forum. I would guess some input from Mr. Barr was included. I would think if there was an issue someone (or Tom Barr) would have PMed him by now.


If you were planning on using EI light on another tank I wouldn't worry. I have been using both Ei daily and EI light for my non co2 tanks for about 4 to 5 years. So far both work fine for me with no issues. Ratios have been the same since I have used calculator.

Thank you Rob for this clear explanation, you are probably right then. I have sent a message to Wet asking his opinion anyway, if he gets back to me, I'll let you know.


The fact is that I am currently dosing the EI daily recommended dosing (0.2ppm Fe from CSM plus 1/16 tsp DTPA that I add to the mix because I have high PH), which is a lot compared to the weekly dosing of macros (EI low-light), and if you consider I perform WC every 2 weeks, that's why I thought about a possible "toxicity" due to CSM overdosing at first... but now I want to overrule and discard the possibility to have a micros deficiency, then I'll keep this schedule for a while and I'll let you know my results.


Thank you so much for bearing with me!
 
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fablau

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Apprentice said:
Back to your tank. I wasn't implying to much mass overall or you needed more.. Just that if say Co2 adjusted after trim, Then say later plants double in size or even triple before you next trim will use more Co2. If no adjustments and plants not trimmed, result lower Co2. If trim regularly then not issue.


PO4 seems good. Check that off the list.


Your probably right. Take at least a couple of weeks to see improvement.


Fablau, what do you think about maybe one of us suggesting having Tank profiles like some other sites have? Might come in handy for threads like this. Tanks specs, dosing water parameters, etc. Let me know what you think? Keep updating on status. Hopefully progress! ;)


Regards, Rob

Yes, I trim my plants regularly every 2 week, so plan-mass shouldn't be an issue. Po4 should be ok also (but I'll keep monitoring it). I'll keep you posted!


As for tank's profiles, that would be great! How could we do that?


Thanks.


Fab.
 

Apprentice

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As for tank's profiles, that would be great! How could we do that?

Well I know sites like plantedtank.net have a ( View Users Tanks ) link under user profile in post. Something along the same line maybe with a drop down form input menu for common parameters. PH, KH, GH, water temp, tank size, light type ( CFL, T5, T5HO, Led, etc. ), wattage, dosing regime ( EI, ET Light, PPS-Pro ), Nitrate levels, Phosphate levels and so on. Another blank space to allow posting of any additional specs or info. Also a spot for at least one full shot of tank.


How much of this is possible will depend on the site software being used and or the site administrator/ programmer ability or interest in pursuing.


If implemented I would suggest making it apart of the initial forum sign up to encourage new posters to use. Suggest to them that this would be of benefit by preventing them from constantly having to repost tank specs. when posting about aquarium issues.


Also could be an interesting way to gather and quantify data. Follow trends and chart various combinations of tanks, lighting and dosing regimes. If possible maybe incorporate ability to export all tank data to spreadsheet if site software permits.


If at the least even a similar one to planted tank.net would be helpful for most common posts. I realize there may be restrictions based on software, site storage capacity, time, cost and programming abilities.


Regards, Rob
 

Jason King

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Rob this is a great idea and is on my list of features todo..


once i get the go a head with the xenforo software i will start work on this and many other features That are planned And needed.


If you have any more ideas please shoot me a pm.


Thanks :)
 

fablau

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kisanjong said:
Rob this is a great idea and is on my list of features todo..

once i get the go a head with the xenforo software i will start work on this and many other features That are planned And needed.


If you have any more ideas please shoot me a pm.


Thanks :)

Looking forward Jason!!
 

Apprentice

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Rob this is a great idea and is on my list of features todo..

once i get the go a head with the xenforo software i will start work on this and many other features That are planned And needed.


If you have any more ideas please shoot me a pm.

Thanks Jason. I know you have a lot on your plate with the plant data base and now the site refresh. If I have any other ideas of note I will definitely PM you. Thanks again for the response.


Regards, Rob
 

fablau

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May 31, BBA UPDATE: gone. Yes, BBA is gone! Here is what I have done to make it disappear from my tank for the past month:


1. Got back to regular EI schedule by daily alternating macros with micros. Dosing 1/3 less than the recommended EI, just because I perform water change every 2 weeks.


2. Four weeks ago, after water change, I added recommended dose of Excel (the high dosage recommended after water change). That destroyed completely all BBA I had, but also damaged some of my Vals (too bad!) that have now recovered :)


3. Raised Co2 a little until I could see pearling on plants (tanks Tom for the tip I read on another thread somewhere!). As a reference, I raised Co2 to reach 80ml per minute. And I'll keep it that way from now on!


So... this has been my recipe to get rid of BBA after 8 months of struggling!


I think the following points helped a big deal:


1. Excel helped to get rid of everything bad was out right at that moment (BBA)


2. Raising Co2.


3. Getting back into regular fert routine without being afraid of "toxicities". I mean, all my plants got better, Alternathera Reinikii included which was struggling in a long time! In particular I think the increase of micros helped the most.


I hope my experience could be useful for other people. I'll keep watching my tank to see if that damn BBA will ever come back, but so far so good! Thanks again to anyone on this forum for the help given.


Best,


Fab.