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Auto Dosing Stock Solution ... Review Request

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by pat w, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. pat w

    pat w Member

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    I'm gearing up to start auto dosing using a medical infusion pump I bought on eBay. It's a two channel unit and I'll dose the standard Macro's and Traces from separate stock solutions. The pump has dosing rates form between .1 ml/hr up to 999 ml/hr and I plan on a 1 ml/hr rate for a total of 24 ml/day, 7 days a week. On water change days (Sunday) I'll dose an extra 12 ml, using a alternate mode of the pump, to make up for the 50% loss.

    My tank is 90g with an estimated water column of 80g.

    This is a summery of the dosing rates I've come up with using a combination of Nutri-Calc, Chuck Gladd's calculator, and APC's Fertilator.

    [​IMG]

    Confirmation I'm on the right track with the rates, or a wave off if I'm not, is what I'm looking for. Any and all comments pro or con are welcome.

    Thanks,
    Pat
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Lets Get Us Some Of Them Thar Rounding Errors

    Hi Pat,

    Your figures look good and I guess if you are into precision measuring and using ACS pure stuff, but, dad-gummed... :rolleyes:

    Rounding off makes life simpler :) I suggest in 80-US gallons of water for a 75 day supply:


    • 150 grams KNO3, yielding about 4-ppm/day 28-ppm/week NO3 and 2.5-ppm/day, 17.5-ppm/week K
    • The .6 grams KH2SO4 adds about 1.4-ppm/day, 9.8-ppm/week and of P and 2-ppm/day, 14-ppm/week K.
    • I recommend no more than 7.5 grams of KH2PO4 that yields about .25-ppm/day, 1.75-ppm/week P and .1-ppm/day, .7-ppm/week K
    • I recommend 60 grams CSM+B yields .17-ppm/day, 1.2-ppm/week iron.

    I also recommend making a 1925ml batch so that you can dose 25ml/day for 77 days, 11 weeks (your solution is diluted 7% that should be acceptable). (If you are sticking with 24ml a day I would go with 1850 ml, your solution is diluted 3%). :)

    I would skip the K2SO4, 18.5/week (22-ppm/week if you stick with the 45 grams, K2SO4) is plenty of K. :rolleyes:

    Biollante
     
    #2 Biollante, Sep 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2010
  3. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi peeps,

    KNO3, about 4ppm/day looks correct as verified off of Wet's dosing calculator without a fancy name.

    KH2PO4, 1.3ppm/day might be a little high as biollante points out, but I dose 1ppm/day and have nothing against it.

    I do not see any problems from adding 1.4ppm/day of K+ to the dose. If you use a GH booster remember that it is adding x% K2SO4 as well.

    CSM+B, 0.16ppm is what I got for pat's dose. I do like the idea of making a 1925ml batch. Adding 60 grams instead of 55 isn't that much different. A little more iron and a little more copper.

    I love math. I just don't know how it's done. All my figuring is from,
    http://calc.petalphile.com/
     
  4. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    My This Is Embarrasing

    Hi Pat, Tug,

    As an identified Nutrient Type (a title given in derision, I proudly wear), it is a bit embarrassing to admit that in Pat's case with a new tank, enriched soil and such he can get away with probably half or even less for the first few months. :eek:

    I am not at all opposed to higher phosphate levels, I recommend Fleet Enemas in fact, I would just as soon see him adding it by wiping his glass at each water change with a solution. I have not seen a problem with phosphates in excess of 15-ppm.

    I am not a fan of K2SO4 as the the “price” for the Potassium is a slightly greater amount of sulfate, a compound that is not easily soluble and Pat is getting plenty of sulfate with the gypsum and Epsom salts he is adding. Even though weekly water changes should relieve any build up, keeping it out to begin with makes sense to me.

    Don't know a calculator for sulfate so the old fashion way. :gw
    73 grams of K2SO4 in 80-US gallons of water will add
    73g K2SO4 ((96.6g/mol SO4)/(174.26g/mol K2SO4))(1/80gal)(1gal/3.8L)(1000mg/1g)(1-ppm/1-mg)
    Cancel and reduce terms
    73 (0.55 SO4) (0.013) (.26) (1000) (1-ppm)
    about 136-ppm SO4 over 75 days, so 136-ppm SO4/75 days is about 1.8-ppm SO4/day or 12.6-ppm/week.

    I always like even out the dosing amounts and round off the amounts to make dosing and measuring as simple as possible. :)

    Some thought may need to be given preservatives.

    Biollante
     
    #4 Biollante, Sep 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2010
  5. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Dancin' wid da goober what brung me ...

    The Gemini only has rate increments of 0.1 ml/hr so it's 24 ml/day or 26.4 ml/day. 25 ml/day is not available.

    I'll be going with 24 for 77 days or 'round 1850 ml total. I play with the calculators some more and shake the suggestions out a bit.

    Bio, glad to hear you'd pass on the K2SO4 'cuz now I don't have to buy any.;)

    I am dosing 1 tsp GHbooster, 75 g CaCl2, 1 rounded tsp. epson salts and 6 level tsp sodium bicarb at waterchanges. Just FYI

    Thanks for the input guys.

    Pat
     
  6. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Coming up short on KNO3

    Well ... I should have checked my supply of ferts. I barely have enough to make the 1850 ml stock solution of KNO3 so I'm going to drop it down to 1000 ml, two solutions for a test run to last ~ 1 month (41.7 doses @ 24ml/day).

    1st bottle:
    1000 ml
    84 gr(15 tsp) KNO3 ... ~4.1 ppm/day NO3, ~2.6 ppm/day K
    30 gr(7 tsp) CSM+B ... ~.16 ppm/day Fe

    2nd bottle
    1000 ml
    9 gr KH2PO4 (Weighed) ... ~.5ppm/day PO4, ~.4 ppm/day K

    By isolating the PO4 in a seperate bottle I can adjust it independantly if I desire in 10% increments.

    What word from the brain trust?

    Pat
     
  7. Tug

    Tug Lifetime Charter Member
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    Looks bumping.

    It will be interesting to see how the daily dose of CSM+B works out. I've decided to reduce my levels of PO4 to a daily dose of 0.6ppm because of this thread and yme's on limiting plant growth.

    [video=youtube;bBCgT7Osyf0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBCgT7Osyf0[/video]
     
  8. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Brain Trust... Looking At The Wrong End Of The Horse

    Hi Pat,

    Looks good to me the numbers work. :)

    This early in your tanks life I doubt a reduction in Nitrogen or Potassium is going to be limiting. Reducing the number of days and keeping it in weeklong increments I think is good.

    Your Goober truly,
    Biollante
     
  9. pat w

    pat w Member

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    OK then. As soon as I can get my family to finish off 4 liters of soft drink I can get started.

    Bio, I didn't mean either of you were the Goober. I was talking about the Gemini.:eek:

    Oh, by the way, my wife and I went to Pet Smart Saturday and picked up either Ludwigia palustris or Ludwigia repens (I think the later, they had it marked as Red Ludwigia), some Hornwort, 3 Rad Wag Platies, and 3 Gold Mickey Mouse Platies. I tried anchoring the Hornwort in the substrate but I've got a stubborn piece that refuses to stay put, so I anchored it on one end of the filter spray bar for now.

    Thanks again,
    Pat
     
    #9 pat w, Sep 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2010
  10. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    That Is Just Gooberific

    Hi Pat,

    Careful with the Hornwort, Ceratophylum demersum, weight (*) it down and let it grab hold Hornworts (as with many Bryophytes) use hold-fasts, root-like organs called rhizoids to hang on. Burying in substrates can be counter productive, not to mention messy.

    The Platy's are another way of saying “I will never need to buy another fish again!” You will wonder how they manage to get the 59 cents each for them. :D

    (*) Weight can be a rock and string or loose rubber band, just make sure you will be able to remove it later without damaging or dislodging the plant.

    [video=youtube;uLjbo1cPLP8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLjbo1cPLP8[/video]

    Truly Gooberly yours, :cool:
    Biollante
     
  11. Wet

    Wet Lifetime Members
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    I like it, too., but think that a large daily dose of N in all but the highest light/CO2 and/or the lowest stocked tanks. Certainly ensures non-limiting and encourages your moving P if necessary, though. (I'd probably dose double the PO4 if I was assuming that NO3 input for ~75-90% uptake, for whatever that's worth.)
     
  12. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Rhizo ... The gift that keeps on giving

    Got a little algae issue and I don't want my NO3 to drop out and compound the problem. Might be overkill but, better a little too much than not enough. Yeah I know the Hornwort is a nutrient sponge and I may be fighting myself but, I thought the extra bio mass might help me out. Also I'm intentionally under feeding to encourage the critters to belly up to the salad bar.


    Pat
     
  13. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Stock solution designer spreadsheet ... StokSol.xls

    I wrote a comprehensive Stock Solution design spreadsheet.
    Testing managing attachments.

    Please check it out for any errors.

    Pat
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    I Am A Pencil & Paper Calculating Kind Of Evil Plant Monster

    Hi Pat,

    It is Fleet Enemas.

    I guess I am confused. :confused: I am not sure I understand the spreadsheet. :eek:

    Column “H” is in grams per milliliter in solution. I am not following.

    Biollante
     
  15. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Spell checkers will be the downfall of civilization. I'll make the correction and upload it again.

    It was meant to be grams 'or' ml according to the nature of the source component; dry or liquid. I guess I should reword the column heading.

    Thanks for the input.

    Basically, you input the volume of the solution, the volume of the daily dose, and the volume of the water column. Then you enter 'in column H' the grams or ml of the component you plan to place in the solution. The body of the table will be populated with the ppm value for the affected nutrients for a single dose with totals appearing at the top.

    Hope that clears things up a little.

    Pat
     

    Attached Files:

  16. pat w

    pat w Member

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    I made a better rework of the spreadsheet. I think it's usable now.

    I'm going to start a new thread to try and get some more feedback.

    Pat
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
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    if i follow this link, it states that i should add 15 grams of KH2PO4 to 1 liter of solution. And dosing 3ml per week of this solution in 10 liters of water gives me 1ppm P and 1.3ppm K.

    So if i enter that same information in your calculator:
    - Stock Solution Vol. (ml) = 1000
    - Single Dose Vol (ml) = 3
    - Water Column Vol. (gal) = 2,64172052
    - KH2PO4 --> 15 grams

    This gives me completely different results: PO4 = 3.1 and K = 1.3

    Which is accurate?
     
  18. pat w

    pat w Member

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    I took my constant values from APC's Fertilator which has been checked and rechecked for accuracy. I just rechecked my SS to verify I didn't fat finger something in the translation. I also entered the 0.0015 gramKH2PO4/liter into it and it supported the SS's results.
    [​IMG]

    Seems to match the results you saw in K but the PO4 doesn't. I'm not a chemist so we'll both need someone else's assist to resolve this.

    Anyone?

    Pat

    P.S. I've started a seperate thread to discuss the SS and any corrections/improvements that may come to light Here. It would probably be best to move further discussion to that thread.
     
    #18 pat w, Sep 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2010
  19. pat w

    pat w Member

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    Gilles, I PM'd you with a resolution. It has to do with the relative weights of P alone and PO4 as a compound. Fertilator calculates ppm of PO4 and the source in your post calculates ppm of P.


    Pat
     
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