Arrrhhh.... BBA

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

PeterGwee said:
Does the mist method makes the 1hr critical period less critical since its direct gas transfer to the stomata?

Regards
Peter Gwee

I would suggest so based on observations.
You can see good pearling in about 1 hour if the mist method is set up right and has good flow.

Since some of the CO2 is in the gas phase, you can use more without dissolving it into the water and affecting the fish.

This targets/fertilizes the plants while not affecting the non target organisms.

You can try this with air also.
It can help a little.
I use air for marine plants in this manner.

So that makes a good comparision if you want tio claim that there are other gases in the bubbles besides CO2.

CO2 is the only gas that will increase plant growth.
So it's safe to assuem an air vs CO2 mist will be due the CO2 concentration in the bubble + the dissolved ppm in the water.

The ppm in the water can be measured. The rest is up to the differences in gas inside bubble alone.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

If anyone wants to grow that level of plants, it's certainly doable.

I do not kept any secrets and consistently can do nice dense thick growth of every species of aquatic plant.

The tank has one 9 liter bag of ADA aqua soil, Via Aqua filter(still one of the best filters and cheap also!), limewood stone, 2x 55 w light, 20 gal tank, basic EI, TMG used, RO+ tap mix to about KH 2-3. shrimp + tetras+ ottos.

EI is easy to obtain, the KH is not too bad and straight forward.
All that you really fiddle with: CO2 till it looks good, so that one hour pearling measure is useful.

Even at lower lighting, the pearling appears quickly.
Regards,
Tom Barr
 

colonel

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Well i have had the mist method up and running for several days now, and needless to say really no affect at all on plants. Algae really inst spreading, doesnt look like it is at least, But my plants dont really seem like the appriciate this method of CO2 any more than any other method I have tried. I added a small power head to my tank to aid in water circulation and getting the mist all over works very well, and By the time lights are on my PH is dropped to 5.7, when the lights turn off the PH is down to 5.5, but yet my plants dont pearl a few hours after the lights have been on, they hardly pearl even after the end of the day. I keep cranking the CO2 up but it hasnt seemed to help. There is a pretty steady stream of bubbles going into the tank, I cant count them but if I had to make a guess I would say anywhere from 7-10 bubbles a second? seems to me like there is more than enough CO2 to grow beautiful plants.... maybe not though, I just keep cranking it up.... the fish have looked a bit stresssed.... nothing to bad though, they arnt gasping or anything so i just keep adding a little bit more everyday and watch them as Tom recomends.
Could you all just double check this, I mean ferts are in order, I know they are.... they should be at least but maybe Im just being stupid and missing something here, I dont know. But this is what I have been doseing,
75 gallon standard tank
260 watts PC lighting for 12 hours a day
3/4 t. KNO3
1/8 t. KH2PO4... both 3x/week

on off days of macros...
20 ml's traces (CSM+B 1 table spoon in 250 ml of H2O)
10 ml's Flourish Iron (was doseing everyday but plants still showed pale growing tips and iron didnt seem to affect it at all so i just cut back again)

I do 50% water change every sunday, and after the water change add 1 teaspoon seachem Eq. and 3/4 teaspoon of epsom salts. Tap water is GH 5.5, and KH 2.5-3... GH is mostly Ca, reason for adding the extra epsom salts.

I just dont get it.... it seems like everything would be in order.... that plants would be at least healthy, if not thriving.... but they arnt, they really hardly grow, hygro sp. will put on maybe a few inches a week, and rotala r. maybe a cm. or two a week.... but others like Mayaca have been in the tank for almost 3 weeks now, and hasnt put forth any new growth at all.... the rest of the plants are just sort of stalled..... not really doing much of anything. I cant figure this out..... its just like, what gives? Unless there is some bizarre odd, never seen before addition to my tap water that keeps plants from growing (which I doubt is the case because I have others thanks one with DIY co2, and other "low tech" tanks that grow decent looking plants)
Blah, i just want to be able to play with the art of this hobby and put togeather nice looking tanks, but its really hard when my plants are sickly and wont grow! am i just trying so hard im missing something completely obvious? welp until i get a better Idea of what i might be doing wrong.... im just going to keep cranking the Co2 up until the plants grow, or the fish cant take it...... but I have a feeling im pretty close to that point that there is to much for the fish......
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

Well, you have everything covered from the sound of it.
Go in and clean good, vacuum the gravel, prune and replant and stay on top of the other aspects besides CO2/light/nutrients.

I'd use TMG instead personally, but it would not a big difference and cause the issues you have.

Try cleaning things up good now you have the nut/Co2 issue under control.
Then give it a few days and see. Trim any algae off etc now.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

colonel

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Thanks Tom, I just wanted to make sure things were in order and I wasnt missing something really obvious, some times you get so involved in something its easy to over look something little that makes a big difference.
Any way, I have been having issues for a while, so I actually just tore down the tank about a month ago maybe? and pulled out the substrate and cleaned it well to get all the extra peat and organic build up (before I knew better when i first set the tank up I added a nice thick layer of peat.... not good for the long run!) So anyway the substrate should be nice and clean now, Maybe its just that since I have been fighting with this and that for so long the plants are just really stunted and need a while to recover.... who knows, but they did pearl better when I was injecting CO2 through the Inline reactor, so it is still possible that its a CO2 issue, im just really pumping a lot in already I cant imange they need that much, but still Its easy enough to rule out by adding more so thats what I plan to do.
we will see, maybe something will give in the next few weeks after things are stable and the plants have some R and R to bounce back to life.... im hoping at least
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

So you are sure you have tiny mist bubbles floating all over and you are adding the nutrients/water changes etc?

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

colonel

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Yepp, I'm using coralife limewood stones, and the mist really isnt all the same size which sort of bugs me only because I feel as though I'm pumping more CO2 than needed to get to the level im at. Some of the bubbles are either coming out of the stone, or they combine togeather under plant leaves or the like and are a large enough size that they get blown around and then float to the surface.
Even so there is a TON of mist being blown around my tank, and with the added power head I can visually see the mist being circulated through all parts of the tank, even into the hair grass in the front that isnt filled in super thick yet but thick enough to slow down water flow pretty good.
Nutrients are covered, I stay on top of it, dont miss any days etc.... and I have double, triple checked my bags to be sure what I am putting is.... is really what I think im putting in. So unless Greg made a mistake packing the nutrients and put the wrong ones in the bag, ;) we are good to go there. And Im keeping up with the water changes to, every sunday. on saturdays I dont dose anything, is this a problem? should I be adding something on this day "off" I would imange nothing would bottom out during that day period to suck up some extra nutrients, but who knows?
Any way like I had said, maybe the plants are just very much stressed and starved and need a period to settle down and get used to the new environment and start to put forth healthy growth again. Seems for right now I have done all i can do and the best bet would be to keep things consistant and wait it out a bit.
I should also add yesterday I hit the point of CO2 concentration I believe my tank can handle with the Mist method. Though my fish wernt VERY stressed as I have seen them in the past trying to get high CO2 concentrations I had my PH down to 5.4 in the evening last night and the started to go tot he surface and gasp a bit here and there. So I backed off and I plan to keep it at 5.5 in the evening hours, when lights come on I believe PH is around 5.7, I will have to double check but that should give me good CO2 concentration through the entire day, I just hope that .2 drop in PH through the day isnt a concern relative to CO2 levels changing.

Thanks for all the Help Tom, and others time to cross my fingers an wait! ;)
~Matt
 

colonel

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hmmmm, welp I dont know. My tank still hasnt start to pearl at all at any point through the day. The only thing I have done recently as far as nutrients wise.... is that I stopped adding 10 ml's of flourish Fe everyday, and went back to adding it 3x a week with the traces.
Now on new leaves coming in from anubias sp. the entire leave is pale yellowish, then on my Echinodorus x barthii the stems and veins through the leaf are pale green/yellowish but the main part of the leaf is still a deep red..... Though it looks as though the newist leave that just started to sprout and is very small is going to be pale through the entire leaf.
And last my stem plants have started to get pale yellowish tops to them, but the odd thing is that the anubias and echinodorus showed this first, and then the stem plants started to look pale today. Which doesnt sound like iron, from everything I have read people always say that the fast growing stem plants show iron def. first. And also the lack of pearling seems like it might lead its self to something more important, like a macro in short supply.... rather than a lack of Iron?
I really do not know though, seems like I have things covered pretty well except Mg is say this time of year my tap water had pretty much NO Mg in it, which I suppose is possible because the water company told me some months ago when I talked to them that our water had 6ppm Mg, and that was about the average for that time of year.... im sure it could change a bit with time. I really dont know Im at a loss.
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

Well, lets talk plants.

Aunbias, Swords etc, hair grass to a large degree, these weeds don't pearl much.

Now a nice weedy like narrow leaf watersprite, most stem plants, Cabomba etc, those will pearl like crazy.

Riccia, do you have any submersed?
Try a little stone, just one.

Eyeball that with then CO2 dosing.

Something is not right, lots of light, good CO2, nutrients.
All the other possibilities tend to kill plants, Copper, Arsenic etc and there seems to be no evidence of these things.......fish die first etc and have troubles also........

It does take a little time for the tank to get going, so called biological momentum. But a few days you should see a huge difference, if things are going well without the mist, then adding it tends to really send things into over drive.



Regards,
Tom Barr
 

colonel

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Yea thats what I was under the impression of but things havnt really even picked up a steady pace, let alone over drive. I know things like anubias and swords and the like dont pearl much, but even these plant before I swiched to mist and was adding iron every day of the week pearled a good bit, and the stem plants usually did also, at least the rotala and the hygro polysperma.... If its an issue of not enough CO2 then i guess im shit out of luck, I swiched to mist for that reason, and I cant add any more with other fish being stressed and gasping at the surface.
I dont have any Ricca but i did just order some that will be coming in tomorrow for another tank, So I will add a small ricca rock into this tank to keep an eye on.... I dont really know what else it could be.... guess we will see... maybe the tank just needs longer to get going who knows.
Matt
 

colonel

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I forgot to add, any ideas as to why im getting new growth that is pale green/yellowish in color? seems as though its a nutrient thing.... like i was saying if I go down .1 degree in PH by adding more CO2, the fish are at the surface, so it seems as though im at the max for CO2.
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

If you have decent surface movement, often the CO2 causes much less gasping issues.

But assuming you have decent surface movement, you can rule out the CO2 for the moment.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

colonel

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Yea, I have the spray bar from the canister pointed slightly upwards to make a nice ripple across the surface, its not really tearing through the surface or anything, just enough to break the water tension and pretty much ripple the surface across about half the tank, I suppose a bit more wouldnt hurt but it seems like it is really related to some other nutrient, or that the plants just need more time to get back to health. I dont know they were doing better, then I stopped adding the iron everyday, and the yellow new growth started again. I really hate to think that I need to add 10 ml of iron every day that.... that can get really expensive pretty quick.... though I suppose i could get the 10% iron powder from greg.... that would be a lot cheaper....
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

You do not need that much traces..........

Sounds like the CO2 is going good now.
So we can sit and wait and you might want to do a nice trim, vac the gravel, clean things up well, clean filter, large water change etc.
Dose consistently and things should perk up.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

colonel

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Well its not traces I was adding 10ml of everyday, it was just Iron. But I still agree that I shouldnt need that much, that is a huge amount in my opinion and it just doesnt seem like it is needed at all. I just noticed that when I did stop adding 10 ml of flourish Iron every day.... slowly plants were getting yellow growing tips again. But slow growers like anubias and swords showed it first.... which doesnt sound like iron.
Any way as I mentioned before the entire tank was just torn down about a month and half ago and the substrate pulled out and rinsed clean of to much peat, and organic build up. So that should be good to go. Time will tell, hope it turns out good
Matt
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

You should use an all encompassing trace, not just the Fe.
I prefer the balanced complete mixes of traces than just the Fe+complete.
If you add more Fe, you also should add more Zn, Mn, Cu etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

colonel

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Yes, I have been using CSM+B for my micros, I add 20mls 3x a week, but I was seeing light green/yellow new growth. I thought it may be lack of Iron.... hence the reason for adding flourish Iron. I am not just using Flourish Iron as a source for traces.

Anyway..... I got my ricca in the mail today and I made up a little ricca rock to put in the tank, With in an hour of putting it in it started to pearl... of course this is mid down now also and my lights and CO2 have been on for about 6 hours.... but it seems as though CO2 levels are going tobe fine.... I will keep an eye on the ricca rock the next few days though to make sure there is intense pearling about an hour after lights come on.....
Assuming that CO2 levels are good what could be the cause of this slow growth and yellow new growth? Possible that it is a trace related issue? I have read of many who dont like CSM+B, who say that they have had less than desirable results when using it compared to flourish or TMG. Would it be worth it to invest in one of the 5 liter jugs of TMG to see? or is it more than likely not related? Im just pretty much at a loss for what to do.... and frustrated..... Thanks

Matt
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

Well, wait till the next day to observe the Riccia, if you pulled it out of the water, it now has lots of CO2, then returning it to the tank, it will show lots of bubbles.

Wait a day or so.

Sounds good though.
TMG is pretty good and reasonable for 5 liters, roughly 48-50$ from Big Al's.
How big is the tank?

Few have ever had issues with it, we have used it in bay area for a good 15 years and have gone back and forth with Flourish and Flourish Fe.

Most folks here use the TMG these days after trying the other brands.
I used it a long time ago because everyone else was using it abd I wanted to standardize my routines for comparions purposes.

It's not a dramatic difference, but more subtle, perhaps 1-3week range.

The yellowing seems odd.
I do not think that is a deficiency still.

What plant species is it on?

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

colonel

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That is a very good point about the ricca, being exposed to the CO2 in the air and all. But I plan to keep an eye on it the next few days to get a feel for the CO2.
The tank is a 75 gallon, so It would definantly be worth it if I swich to TMG to go with the 5 liter jug.... Though it really probably isnt the source of the problem in this case, but I wouldnt mind the over all sheen you get from it. Makes the plants almost look like they have a shiny wax coating over the leaves.....
The yellowing is odd I can't figure it out. It first showed up In Anubias nana with a new leaf opening and being yellow through the entire thing, stem, leaf and veins. At this time it also showed up in the red melon sword in the tank, the leave came in a good red, but the stem and veins were yellow.
Soon after that the stem plants started to show yellow tops, most easily seen on Rotala rotundifola, but also showing up on hygro difformis, H. corymbosa and polysperma.... along with Limnophila aromatica.
Along with the yellow tops/new growth the plants just lack a general health to them.... they arnt robust and healthy looking and arnt really growing much, really just the h. polysperma puts on any noticable growth through the week, and that is only a few inches max. Which from what I under stand under 3.5 watts a gallon of PC light and CO2 with balanced nutrients.... a plant like that should pretty much be growing so much its annoying.
As you seem to agree all nutrients seem to be covered well, and I really feel that CO2 is also, though there isnt really any pearling from any plants in the tank at any point during the day. But keeping an eye on the ricca should be a pretty good indicator in the next few days.
Also out side contamination seems unlikely? just seems as though fish or shrimp would be in ill health of dieing if that was the case. Maybe the plants are just really really stunted from playing around for the past several months trying to get things right. I dont know.
 

Tom Barr

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Re: Arrrhhh.... BBA

The nutrient issues sound more like Mg deficiency than anything.
Slowed growth over all, yellowing/veining.
The traces will generally not influence pearling and general growth to a large degree.

Anubias tend to yellow with poor Mg no matter how much TMG you may add.
Oddly, it'll also show some signs of problems early on.

Add 1/2 teaspoon of MgSO4 or so and note growth. Give it a few days and watch fast growers and new growth carefully.

Regards,
Tom Barr