If anyone has a moment, reading this might help if forwarded to Jeff over at PFK's.
I read a few of the threads.
He's asking for this references etc and I have some that explain and support my contention and refute his so called experts.
The tech version:
http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Faculty Pubs/CanfieldPubs/macrophyte.pdf
and the more general reading version:
http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Faculty Pubs/CanfieldPubs/Aquatics2004LR.pdf
Now come back to fish and so called polluted waters:
http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Faculty Pubs/CanfieldPubs/TrophicState.pdf
This suggest that more plants/nutrients are correlated positively with more fish biomass as well.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., K.A. Langeland, M.J. Maceina, W.T. Haller, J.V. Shireman, and J.R. Jones. 1983. Trophic state classification of lakes with aquatic macrophytes. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 40:1713-1718.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., J.V. Shireman, D.E. Colle, W.T. Haller, C.E. Watkins II, and M.J. Maceina. 1984. Prediction of chlorophyll a concentrations in lakes: The importance of aquatic macrophytes. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 41:497-501.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., J.V. Shireman, and J.R. Jones. 1984. Assessing the trophic status of lakes with aquatic macrophytes. pp. 446-451. Proceedings of the Third Annual Conference of the North American Lake Management Society. October. Knoxville, Tennessee. EPA 440/5-84-001.
Canfield, D.E., Jr. and R.W. Bachmann. 1981. Prediction of total phosphorus concentrations, chlorophyll a and Secchi depths in natural and artificial lakes. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 38(4):414-423.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., J.R. Jones, and R.W. Bachmann. 1982. Sedimentary losses of phosphorus in some natural and artificial Iowa lakes. Hydrobiologia 87:65-67.
Canfield, D.E., Jr. 1983. Prediction of chlorophyll a concentrations in Florida lakes: the importance of phosphorus and nitrogen. Water Resources Bulletin 19:255-262.
Canfield, D.E., Jr. 1983. Impact of integrated aquatic weed management on water quality in a citrus grove. Journal Aquatic Plant Management 21:69-73. Canfield, D.E., Jr. 1983. Sensitivity of Florida lakes to acidic precipitation. Water Resources Research 19:833-839.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., M.J. Maceina, L.M. Hodgson, and K.A. Langeland. 1983. Limnological features of some northwestern Florida lakes. Journal of Freshwater Ecology 2:67-79.
Canfield, D.E., Jr. and L.M. Hodgson. 1983. Prediction of Secchi disc depths in Florida lakes: Impact of algal biomass and organic color. Hydrobiologia 99:51-60.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., R.W. Bachmann, and M.V. Hoyer. 1983. Winter salt freeze-out in hardwater lakes. Limnology and Oceanography 28:970-977.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., K.A. Langeland, M.J. Maceina, W.T. Haller, J.V. Shireman, and J.R. Jones. 1983. Trophic state classification of lakes with aquatic macrophytes. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 40:1713-1718.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., M.J. Maceina, and J.V. Shireman. 1983. Effects of hydrilla and grass carp on water quality in a Florida lake. Water Resources Bulletin 19:773-778.
Langeland, K.A., D.L. Sutton, and D.E. Canfield, Jr. 1983. Growth response of hydrilla to extractable nutrient in prepared substrates. Journal of Freshwater Ecology 2:263-272.
Canfield, D.E., Jr.1984. A survey of sodium and chloride concentrations in Florida lakes. Florida Scientist 47:44-54.
Canfield, D.E., Jr. and C.E. Watkins II. 1984. Relationships between zooplankton abundance and chlorophyll a concentrations in Florida lakes. Journal of Freshwater Ecology 2:335-344.
Maceina, M.J., J.V. Shireman, K.A. Langeland, and D.E. Canfield, Jr. 1984. Prediction of submersed plant biomass by use of a recording fathometer. Journal of Aquatic Plant Management 22:35-38.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., J.V. Shireman, D.E. Colle, W.T. Haller, C.E. Watkins II, and M.J. Maceina. 1984. Prediction of chlorophyll a concentrations in lakes: The importance of aquatic macrophytes. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 41:497-501.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., S.B. Linda, and L.M. Hodgson. 1984. Relations between color and some limnological characteristics of Florida lakes. Water Resources Bulletin 20:323-329.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., J.V. Shireman, and J.R. Jones. 1984. Assessing the trophic status of lakes with aquatic macrophytes. pp. 446-451. Proceedings of the Third Annual Conference of the North American Lake Management Society. October. Knoxville, Tennessee. EPA 440/5-84-001.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., M.J. Maceina, F.G. Nordlie, and J.V. Shireman. 1985. Plasma osmotic and electrolyte concentrations of largemouth bass from some acidic Florida lakes. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 114:423-429.
Canfield, D.E., Jr., S.B. Linda, and L.M. Hodgson. 1985. Chlorophyll-biomass-nutrient relationships for natural assemblages of Florida phytoplankton. Water Resources Bulletin 21:381-391.
Canfield, D.E. Jr., K.A. Langeland, S.B. Linda, and W.T. Haller. 1985. Relations between water transparency and maximum depth of macrophyte colonization in lakes. Journal of Aquatic Plant Management 23:25-28.
Shireman, J.V., M.V. Hoyer, M.J. Maceina, and D.E. Canfield, Jr. 1985. The water quality and fishery of Lake Baldwin, Florida: 4 years after macrophyte removal by grass carp. Proceedings of the Fourth Annual Conference and International Symposium of the North American Lake Management Society. October 16-19, 1984. McAfee, New Jersey.
Shireman, J.V., D.E. Colle, and D.E. Canfield, Jr. 1985. Efficacy and cost of aquatic weed control in small ponds. Water Resources Bulletin 22:43-48.
Hoyer, M.V, D.E. Canfield, Jr., J.V. Shireman, and D.E. Colle. 1985. Relationship between abundance of largemouth bass and submerged vegetation in Texas reservoirs: A critique. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 5:613-616
Hoyer, M.V. and D.E. Canfield, Jr. 1985. Plant biomass in several Florida rivers. Aquatics 7:16-17.
Hodgson, L.M., S.B. Linda, and D.E. Canfield, Jr. 1986. Periphytic algal growth in a hypereutrophic Florida lake following a winter decline in phytoplankton. Florida Scientist 49:234-241. Hoyer, M.V. and D.E. Canfield, Jr. 1986. Surface area of aquatic macrophytes. Aquatics 8:26-27.
Canfield, D.E. Jr., and M.V. Hoyer. 1988. Influence of nutrient enrichment and light availability on the abundance of aquatic macrophytes in Florida streams. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 45:1467-1472.
Now not one of these researchers thought I was the least bit crazy with what I noted in aquariums with lots of plants, nor did Troels from Tropica nor Dr Ole Peterson from Denmark.
The researchers agree, it's the hobbyist that have the issue and the block in the thinking. 95% of the algae related issues are due to CO2, not NO3/PO4 etc.
When the adequate levels of CO2, generally about 30ppm or so, are met and stable over the light period, then algae is no longer an issue when you add fertilizers.
To someone that is not aware of that, adding NO3/PO4 to a poor CO2 plant tank will get the predicted bloom and with good reason, the low levels of CO2 are not enough to support full plant growth. When PO4 and or NO3 is limited, that down regulates CO2 demand. so your plant needs less now due to a secondary PO4 limitation.
This dramatically slows the growth down.
That slows the CO2 demand down as well.
If you remove a strong PO4 limitation by adding PO4 fertilizer, then the CO2 uptake will sky rocket.
So 10ppm might have done it before, now without any other limitation to CO2 uoptake/demand by the plant, it is free to gobble up as much CO2 as it can.
So this rules out all the nutrients as being a cause to slow plant growth. Then it's on to the next issue, getting good CO2 so you can objectively measure and judge the nutrients and lighting indepdently.
If you have poor CO2 at high light and want to vary the PO4 levels around, that will confound the method and reasults.
That's bad data. But if you are not aware of this effect or do not account for it reasonably well with a good method to measure CO2 etc, then how would you know?
You wouldn't.
Regards,
Tom Barr