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Amount of Iron in Seachem Flourish

Discussion in 'Aquatic Plant Fertilization' started by scottward, Jul 3, 2011.

  1. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    Hi guys,

    My 100g tank is fairly low light (120W T8) + CO2 enriched.

    I'm currently dosing 1/2 EI (1/4tsp KPO, 3/4tsp KNO3, 15mls Seachem Flourish), all dosed on alternative days 3x per week as per usual.

    Just wondering if there is enough iron in 15mls Seachem Flourish 3x per week?

    E. Tenellus is looking a bit pale and not throwing out it's runners.

    CO2 is set at what it's normally set at when growth is good.

    I have 100% flourite substrate but if I understand correctly this adds nothing in terms of nutrients (doesn't add any iron), just a good storage area for nutrients added?

    If I do need more iron, what can I use that is much cheaper than Seachem Iron? Supposedly I can use Iron Sulphate + Ascorbic Acid?

    Scott.
     
  2. Left C

    Left C Lifetime Members
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    Dosing 15mL of Flourish into 85 gallons (100g - 15%) = 0.15ppm of Fe per dose according to the fertilator and the fertfriend calculators.

    How old are your T8's?
     
  3. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    Hi Left C,

    Thanks.

    My T8's aren't too old.

    I notice with the EI guide that it mentions "does Iron if required".

    How exactly does one determine if it's required?

    I guess it would only be required in addition to the standard full EI dosage (i.e. as part of TMG, Flourish, CSM+B) in super high light situations?

    For low-moderate lighting situations, the EI dosage would be enough?

    I'm only dosing 1/2 EI at the moment, so only dosing the .15ppm as you have calculated for me above. Is this enough?

    Scott.
     
  4. Crispino Ramos

    Crispino Ramos Guru Class Expert

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    If the plants show signs of chlorosis, extra iron would help.
     
  5. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Vitamin C and Rusty Nails

    Hi Scott,

    You seem to be dosing .38-ppm of iron, around 19-ppm nitrates and 12-ppm Potassium per week. :)Have not a clue what KPO is. :eek:

    I like levels at least three times greater for iron.

    Lack of Magnesium will also cause iron deficiency.;)

    Echinodorus tenellus as with Echinodorus spp. in general seem to be iron hogs.:eek:

    Not so sure about the iron sulfate and ascorbic acid, I know lemon juice will complex iron, not sure it will act for a long enough time to do any good for the plants.:confused:

    Most folk are going for the EDTA or DPTA.:cool:

    Biollante
     
  6. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    Thanks for the replies.

    KPO was supposed to be Potassium Mono-Phosphate. K2PMO or something like that. ;-)

    Do you use a test kit to measure your levels Bio? Iron test kits are useless right? I'm guessing that you dose enough to get a 3x greater level of iron than me simply based on fertiliator (etc) results?

    Ah yes. I had forgotten about that. Does the lack of Mg inhibit the uptake of iron, or does it inhibit the utilisation of iron? What I'm getting at here is that could the iron be stored within the plant unable to be utilised but then suddenly can be utilised once Mg is sufficiently dosed?

    I haven't put any Epson Salts in the tank for while. I suppose I could put some in to rule it out. 1 tsp per 100litres right?

    I remember that now too. Iron in the water column is fine though isn't it? You don't really have to use fertiliser pellets anymore; that's old school. ;-)

    Ok.

    So, just to check my understanding, EDTA/DPTA is a little harder for the plant to process than Iron Gluconate, but stays available in the water column for a longer period of time than the Iron Gluconate? I read a discussion somewhere today Iron Gluconate vs EDTA. It did my head in a bit, the discussion didn't seem to end in anything conclusive.

    What's the difference between EDTA/DPTA?

    Rather than forking out the dough for more Seachem Iron, can I just buy something from the local hydroponics store and mix my own? What should I buy???

    Also, while on the topic, instead of Seachem Flourish I can use CSM+B I believe. I don't think the CSM+B is available in Australia, but I've heard of a product called Rexolin. Anybody know anything about it?

    So, in a nutshell, how can I make my own Seachem Flourish and Seachem Iron?? :cool:

    Scott.
     
  7. nipat

    nipat Guru Class Expert

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    It should be adequate. Looking at the EI light thread:
    http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2819-EI-light-for-those-less-techy-folks

    Your tank dosage for traces is 30 ml 3x a week.
    And the traces brands can be Flourish or TPN.
    If you use TPN, 30 ml will just add around 0.058 PPM of Fe for your 100 gallon tank.
    People are doing this and seem happy.

    The problem can be something else. I remember I used to dose 0.25 PPM of Fe "daily"
    in order to just barely kept Stargrass (Heteranthera Zosterifolia) alive. But later
    I tried adding 0.5 PPM of Mg daily and the Stargrass thrived with just daily dose of
    0.135 PPM Fe.

    Then another incident, Blyxa kept melting no matter what level of ferts and CO2.
    The situation turned better only after I got rid of BGA.

    My Rotala was also stunted, until I changed two of my bulbs to Philips 840's that
    gave more red spectrum.

    By the way, your 120w of T8's may still be too bright. My 90g tank can't handle
    108w of T8's (DIY with individual reflectors, no splash guard), spirogyra would bloom
    heavily with that. I have to cut it down to 72w (18w x 4 bulbs) and a 14w T5
    (partly wrapped with paper and without reflector to reduce the light) to add light to
    blind spot in the rear.

    Today's 18w T8 bulbs such as Philips 865, 840 are very bright (1300-1350 lumens)
    and have long bright service life. A regular 24w T5HO is just around 2000 lumens.
    Two of these T8's will be brighter than a T5HO of equivalent size and with equivalent
    reflector.
     
    #7 nipat, Jul 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2011
  8. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Kh2... K2h...

    Hi Scott,

    I take it you mean Potassium Monophosphate, which is most likely K2HPO4 (0bviously should be KH[SUB]2[/SUB]PO[SUB]4[/SUB]). That adds another .9-ppm K and a bit more than 1-ppm PO4.
    Should it be potassium diphosphate (KH2PO4) (Obviously should have been K[SUB]2[/SUB]HPO[SUB]4)[/SUB], you add about .6 K and around 1.4-ppm PO4. (Thanks Scott)

    Actually I do measure various iron levels, yes I think most hobbyist iron test kits return unclear to meaningless results.

    • I do not believe there is any requirement to test, for iron or anything else. I dose far higher than the “standard” 0.1-ppm in most tanks because I believe the “standard” is inadequate, particularly for the Echinodorus spp. that seem to require much higher levels of iron.
    As a sidebar--- in as much as I use Plantex CSM+B, my primary source being Planted Aquarium Fertilizer, http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=inven&EditU=2&Regit=5, contains 0.04% Boron where Tom Barr and EI assume more on the order of 1.2%. It is possible that my 10-30 times dosing levels may in part have been successful do to the levels of Boron coming closer to what the “experts” say are required.
    Yes, one teaspoon of Epsom salts for 100 liters is good.

    Apparently iron glucanate is easier for the plants to use, but does not have the staying power and works best in slightly acidic water.

    As I understand it EDTA is weaker than DPTA and therefore does not keep iron in its usable state as long. EDTA is generally considered fine for acidic, neutral of slightly alkaline water, DPTA is better for harder water and HEDTA is better still, I suppose.

    For three times a week dosing I do not think it makes much difference unless you have really hard water.

    I think Nipat’s comments are relevant (as usual).

    Check out James Planted Tank, http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm.

    Biollante
     
    #8 Biollante, Jul 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2011
  9. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    Hi guys.

    Thanks for the replies.

    I will stick with the lighting I have at the moment and work at my nutrients a bit more.

    I will move back up the full EI for the moment. For my 100g tank this is:

    1.5 tsps KNO3 3x per week
    0.5 tsps K2HPO4 3x per week
    30mls Flourish 3x per week

    I'm still a bit uncertain about the iron levels though. I get the feeling that even the 30mls 3x per week might not be enough considering I have a lot of E.Tenellus in my tank.

    If I were to buy some Flourish Iron, how much of it would I need to add 3x per week (i.e. at the same time as the regular flourish) to be sure that I definitely don't have any iron limitation?

    And based on Bio's advice, I should dose 4 tsps of Epson Salts at each water change? Will this provide enough Mg to last, say, a couple of weeks in the event that I miss at weekly water change?

    Should I dose Gypsum too just to keep calcium levels up?

    I will post some more questions about CSM+B etc in another thread.

    Scott.
     
  10. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate

    Hi Scott,

    Here are my specific recommendations for your 100-gallon tank::gw

    • 1 teaspoon KNO3, 3 times a week, about 25-ppm NO3, 16-ppm K
    • 1/8 teaspoon K2HPO4, 3 times a week, about 2.4-ppm PO4, 2-ppm K
    • 2-3 teaspoons CaSO4 (Gypsum), 3 times a week, from 14-20-ppm Ca per week.
    • 1 teaspoon MgSO4.7H2O (Epsom salts), 3 times a week, about 4-ppm Mg per week
    • 30 ml SeaChem Flourish, 3 times a week, about .75-ppm Fe++ and associated trace
    • 10 ml SeaChem Flourish Iron, 3 times a week about .8-ppm Fe++

    At each water change if you like: (This kind of depends on your situation, when in doubt dose.)

    • 3 teaspoons of gypsum gives about 7-ppm Ca
    • 1 teaspoon of Epsom salt gives about 1.3-ppm Mg

    I think that is a balanced approach should you find a cheaper source of iron, I might bump it up a bit.

    • Though to be honest I am less sure of the need for iron over 1-ppm since having learned of the Boron issue, going to take some observing (no claim of science, just observation) and some thinking (always painful:eek:) and some research…

    Biollante
     
  11. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    Bio - I think you might have these around the wrong way - I think -

    KH2PO4 = Mono Potassium Phosphate (or Potassium Monophosphate??)
    K2HPO4 = Potassium Diphosphate

    Anyway, over the phone to the fertiliser company I asked for "Mono Potasium Phosphate", so I'm assuming they sent me KH2PO4.

    In any case, doing the calculations using Wets calculator at dosages as small as a teaspoon it doesn't seem to matter much.

    So I guess if it turns out that I actually have the other one, I'll be close enough in terms of Nitrogen and Potassium (and mono) anyway.

    Now where is "Mono" on the periodic table of elements......... ;)

    Scott.
     
  12. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    I Need To Hire Nipat

    Hi Scott,

    Yes backwards I get did…
    :eek:

    I will edit to correct the post, thanks…
    :rolleyes::eek:

    Biollante
    May be a double post, last one seems to have gone off into the ether(net).
    :eek:
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Note, while Seachem's flourish has a specific ppm you can add to the water, this is not taken up by the plant.

    Likewise, one of the few studies done on aquatic plant uptake of Fe suggested optimal ranges of 6ppm, not 0.06ppm not, 0.6ppm, but 6ppm for the max rate of growth for Hydrilla and the highest rate of uptake, but not the highest rate of growth at 8ppm, thisw was done with ETDA FE in softer water(se Haller et al, 1970's something).


    So how would you measure plant uptake of Fe from a solution?
    What would be a good way vs trying to measure loss in the water column, eg, what the plant actually takes into it's tissue?
     
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