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Amount of Copper in Fertilizers

Discussion in 'Inverts' started by Tabatha, Feb 19, 2008.

  1. Tabatha

    Tabatha Junior Poster

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    I have found a chelated micronutrient which contains 0.1% copper.

    Does anyone know the % of copper shrimp can withstand/tolerate without any ill effects? :(

    Thanks,

    Tabatha
     
  2. airriick

    airriick Junior Poster

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    In my opinion and observation through the web, some people say copper does kill shrimps and some say they don't.

    As long as your food doens't contain copper, that should be fine if you have a planted tank.

    The plants would use up the copper, before they can actually they can harm your shrimp.

    But don't take my words for granted, I don't want your shrimp to die :p Cause of me, haha.
     
  3. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    It'd probably help to find out what form that copper is coming in. CuSO4 is a little different from say... CuCN. I'm guessing it's Plantex CSM+B that you're eyeballing. There's controversy about it, no doubt.

    If it is as CuSO4 (I have a feeling CSM+B uses this), then the LD50 for shrimp of most kinds that i've seen is about 10x or more higher; most around 10-20ppm. EPA tap water standards max out at 1.3ppm. I haven't seen an LD-50 for this stuff more sensitive than about .4ppm for anything besides molusks.


    Here's my math on the issue...

    First the average mix, turned in to PPM:

    8.8g csm+b/250ml*4 = .1408g or 140.8ppm CSM+B

    Now calculate for .1% Cu:

    140.8
    ------- = .1408ppm
    1000

    Now lets take a really high dose... say 1ml/l of this solution in the tank:

    .1408
    ------- = 0.0001408mg/L or .1408ppb Cu.
    1000

    The most sensitive LD50 I could find was for 15ppb. Perhaps it's the form of the copper, rather than the effects of the element its self.

    As usual, double-check my math; it might be wrong.

    -Philosophos
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    0.4ppm is a pretty high range.
    That will kill all algae.............

    0.1% and then you add 1 ml to 10 gallons........

    We are not talking much in the way of copper ppm.

    CMS has
    1.5% Magnesium (MG),
    1.5% Magnesium (cheleted)
    0.10% Copper (Cu)
    7.0% Iron (Fe - cheleted),
    2.0% Maganese (Mn - Cheleted)
    0.06% Molybedenum (MO)
    0.40% Zinc (Zn - cheleted).
    Boric Acid

    So 70X less Cu relative to Fe..........

    Say you add 0.5ppm of Fe, this means you add 0.5ppm/70 = 0.007ppm.......

    I'd bet the farm that Cu in CMS does no harm to any invert even if you dose 1-2ppm of Fe as a proxy for CMS........

    That's pretty damn low.

    Bark up another tree if you think the traces are killing the shrimp, I've used higher levels with issues for many years, CRS, RCS, Amanos etc...........

    Folks have claimed all sorts of crap about shrimp and their deaths.
    They claimed EI killed them, high NO3's, etc...........

    Somehow........someway.................my shrimp and other folks have been breeding them and they breed, live and have long lives, over a year + and the there are fry everywhere.........

    Sort of disproves the claims now don't it?
    Sort of like the older: excess PO4 = algae claim.

    Same logic here.

    Dose makes the poison, copper additions alone are fine, what ppm, or ppb is the critical question, NOT merely adding it.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  5. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    Sad that I bought so much quantity of TPN before coming in this forum:
    It is 100x less concentrated than CMS, I bet the economics if I didn't stock so much of it (1.5 year autonomy :p )

    Just to say that also Tropica has copper 10x less dosed than iron and there was much concern about TPN and shrimps on some forums and this proved to be wrong
     
  6. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi,

    Looked in the acronym list thread, but what is CMS?

    Just purchased a new jug of TPN (works well but is expensive and lasts a while) as I still cannot find Tom's new trace mix......

    Would be happy to try something that may be better AND less expensive..

    Appreciate any information.
     
  7. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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  8. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Jonny_ftm,

    Ahhhh, I was thinking maybe so as it made sense, but had not heard of it with the INVERTED TLA of CMS...

    Thanks for the confirmation...........
     
  9. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Folks have been running around for a couple of years now claiming that the Cu in CMS is killing their Crystal red shrimp and anything else they have trouble keeping.

    Yet..........I have about 100 CRS and dose EI, CO2 etc, and add CMS without issues.

    At about 5-10X what most of these same fear mongers claim are lethal.
    Somehow they breed and live.

    So if that is truly the cause of the deaths, then how can this be?
    Both claims cannot be right, however, only one is truly independent of other potential causes of deaths: my tanks.

    Everything else has to be independent of the CMs dosing because they are still alive.

    So adding CMS and they still live= it cannot be due to CMS dosing.
    Long term or short term time frames, or with sublethal effects like impacting breeding/stop breeding or behavior.

    So the issue is more why are they killing their shrimp.
    Not running around fear mongering everyone else, doing a diservice to the hobby with such banther, then arguing and poo pooing me when I point it out.

    Anyone can speculate their dirty underwear kills their shrimp.
    Does not mean that's the reason they are dying.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  10. Panda

    Panda Guru Class Expert

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    I'm reading all the info that I can but only a few people talks about TDS. Before I jump again into CRS I want to know about this and don't remember from where I google it:

    "The most common problem overlooked by most hobbyists is the dissolved substance in the water.**If the TDS exceeds 150 and your pH is on the higher range, nitrogenous waste in the tank can turn toxic."

    any of you tested TDS? Also, can I keep CRS using only RO water and remineralize the water ( equilibrium , etc )
    thanks
     
  11. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    I don't work with TDS my self, mostly for lack of a meter.

    Currently I've got a tank running 100% RO water outside of the odd re-filling of the canister filter during cleaning. Other than that, the nutrients come from a near-standard EI dosing with some compensation for magnesium, iron and calcium. Micros come in from flourish. The food sources are quite varied, and likely offer some micros.

    Under these conditions, yamato shrimp, otos, apistos and pencil fish are thriving. Other species have done well in the past.

    -Philosophos
     
  12. Panda

    Panda Guru Class Expert

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    Anyone with more info on TDS? RO/DI water ?
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Sure you keep them in that.
    I do not use RO and add ferts (remineralize).
    I do not agree with the above quoted statement however.

    They are going by hearsay. A typical TDS using RO or softer tap will give about 300.if you add ferts per EI ranges.

    pH is not relevant, alkalinity is.
    That's the red flag that suggest this is myth and hearsay.
    I think they are using the NH4/NH3 ratio and pH to justify this myth they came up with.

    If you use CO2, this pH issue has little to do with KH(alkalinity), so KH is the important factor perhaps. TDS is often used as a water change quality parameter(eg Discus) based on waste/leftover food.

    This is taken out of context and applied to planted tanks where ferts are added and the NH3 is immeasurable as well. pH is also different due to CO2.
    So when taken out of context, folks get worried about things they should not be.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  14. jonny_ftm

    jonny_ftm Guru Class Expert

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    I have a TDS meter that I used to monitor my water quality. It is a good way to start with to monitor the need of a water change.

    The harder the water, the higher is TDS. In my location, tap is GH14 and KH17 ends up with a TDS of about 700us.

    Also, when the water is not changed and is loaded with mineral and organic matter, TDS will climb. It can help guide people to maintain a good quality of water for some sensitive species.

    Also, CRS usually prefer GH 6-10, so probably a higher TDS than your statement
     
  15. nerbaneth

    nerbaneth Guest

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    I'd be curious to find out the level of copper that is just enough to kill algea and not enough to kill plants or shrimp. The LFS I work at insists on using copper in the FW system - which includes the plants.. which means that if we don't sell the plants within a couple weeks of getting them, they die.
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    This is well known.

    for algae, 0.4ppm
    for plants, about 1.0ppm

    Obviously, this varies plant to plant, alga to alga.

    Shrimp on the other hand will likely be below 0.4ppm of Copper..........so tyou are already dead in the water with this if you have shrimp.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  17. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    In general, screwing around with copper and using its toxicity to handle just about anything is a bad idea. From cheap absinthe and the death or insanity of some of its famous imbibers to ich treatment for loach and the harm it does to plants, copper is some nasty stuff. Algae can be treated with balance in its conditions, and perhaps treated with excel. Coppers effects are cumulative, which makes it hard to calculate.

    At the same time. I'd love to be proven wrong. If you think there's a chance for it, go and research it. Perhaps it could be combined with excel for a cumulative effect every now and then. Maybe there's levels below shrimp stress levels for multiple substances that, when combined, works as an algaecide.

    -Philosophos
     
  18. Matt F.

    Matt F. Lifetime Charter Member
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    Copper is an essential nutrient for shrimp. They need it to regenerate their blood, which makes it necessary in shrimp food.
     
  19. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    So what are you trying to communicate about toxicity then? All life, be it plant or animal, has a requirement for copper, but also an LC/LD50.

    As a root for what I'm getting at, maybe it'd be easier to use a quote (even though I typically don't like to rely on them):

    "All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous." - Paracelsus

    -Philosophos
     
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