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Amano's Tanks

Discussion in 'Talk to Tom Barr' started by scottward, Sep 3, 2009.

  1. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    Hi Tom.

    I was looking through some pictures of Amano's tanks and noticed a tank of his, that looked awesome, that is about the same size as mine (100 gallons).

    I noticed that he was using a great deal more light over his tank than me, yet he was only injecting CO2 at 5 bubbles per second.

    I notice his heavy reliance on a drop checker. Sure, 5bps might give him the correct green colour in his drop checker, but as you have proven many times over, these things are very misleading.

    Surely Amano is going to run into some serious algae problems with such a low CO2 injection rate for a tank this size, coupled with high lighting?

    I'm thinking he sets the tank up, takes a beautiful photo of it before things start to go downhill.

    Sorry if Amano is a friend of yours...no offence intended.

    I'm just challenging the tank as I try to understand my own.

    Scott.
     
  2. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Efficient Diffusion

    Very efficient diffusion of CO2, combined with excellent circulation.

    Generally, I believe the tanks have a definite life span, they are planned to last or mature over a number of months, then are torn down and started again.

    Biollante
     
  3. tedr108

    tedr108 Lifetime Charter Member
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    Assuming Amano was using his own standard lighting...

    Tom showed a while back that the lights used on most Amano tanks have a fairly low PAR rating, so Amano's tanks are lower light than you might expect. I think the reflectors are not very good. That being the case, algae would be less of a problem.

    I have also heard that his tanks do have a "life span" -- I personally have seen pics of some with algae.
     
  4. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    What's so efficient about the diffusion technique? If it were really that good, everybody would be doing it!

    5 bubbles per second, lots of light, large tank........yet no algae?????

    I'd have to see it to believe it!

    I think Amano is full of sh*t! ;-)

    Scott.
     
  5. scottward

    scottward Guru Class Expert

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    Even if he was using regular lights, and the lighting was only moderate, how can 5 bubbles per second provide stable, non-limiting levels of CO2 in a 100 gallon tank? Based on everything I've read, and experienced, this is just asking for a BBA outbreak!

    Tom is always saying that's it's CO2 CO2 CO2, and I totally agree with him....

    So why doesn't Amano have massive BBA breakouts in his tanks that are similar in size to mine?

    I'm jealous (and baffled)! ;-)

    Scott.
     
  6. tedr108

    tedr108 Lifetime Charter Member
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  7. tedr108

    tedr108 Lifetime Charter Member
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    At lower light, I don't think 5 bps is all that bad for a 100G tank, if it is getting circulated. I did a very high light 50G tank for like 9 months on 3 bps and had virtually zero algae using the EI method -- and my stem plants grew about 2" per day (I finally got sick of all the pruning).
     
  8. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    That tank also got BBA pretty bad.
    Amano does things by eye more than test.

    If you met him, you'd understand.
    I am more that way myself also.
    I look and can tell what I need to add.

    I am less assuming "perhaps" about why and the measurements I take however.
    I'm not sure, never could get any straight discussion out of Amano.
    I like him and he's a nice person, but not someone to hang out with and talk plants really, maybe, art, design, etc of the scape, photographing etc.
    He's an artist making a living.
    Not easy.

    At lower light, then the demand for CO2 is greatly reduced.
    Some suggest limiting nutrients and that reduces the demand for CO2, but many seen to assume it means that the algae are limited, that is not the case, like reduction in light, a stronger limitation with PO4 = a reduced demand for CO2.

    CO2 is still the core issue for plants and the indirect algae issue.

    You can see this both directions, with light changes and with nutrient changes, particularly PO4.

    See this thread about going the other way and the bad assumptions/lack of good testing that lead many to a false conclusion:

    http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/6166-methods-algae-control-growing-plants.html

    regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  9. Biollante

    Biollante Lifetime Charter Member
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    Hi Scott,

    Among other things, I didn't mean to offend and answered offhand.:eek:

    Good circulation and having help to take care of things, covers a lot of ills.;)

    I know that my tanks look a lot better now that I can devote a lot of time to them.

    How do we know he didn't have big BBA breakouts, I have heard that is a serious problem for folks using the expensive Japanese system.:rolleyes:

    I can get you BBA for a lot less!:eek:

    Biollante
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    This aquarium had a very bad case of hair and BBA and was taken down:
    [​IMG]

    It now has been totally redone, all sediment removed and lower maintenance scape added.

    They changes the outflow pipes from the nicer lilies to the Do Aqua which are weird.
    This seemed to change everything as far as flow and did not distribute the CO2 very well.

    The tank got very bad BBA.

    My 60 Cube has a little residual left over from the move, I also added 2x the bioload. But the BBA is going away, no new growth, plants are doign better etc, CO2 needed some tweaking etc.

    I eyeballed the CO2 100%.

    Once things are fine, then I go back and measure the CO2.
    Then I log that.

    With a data logger, and CO2 monitor, I can do things like this:

    [​IMG]

    The initial slope of this graph when the CO2 first comes on should be as steep as we can, then level off. Then drop fast after the lights turn off.

    You cannot test this stuff directly, maybe with a pH meter/controller with data logging and use the KH, but few can do this with CO2 directly.

    I eyeballed my tank/s, since I know what to look for and the fish are much more important to me than any nuisance algae I know I can get rid of later.

    So they come first, then plants, and algae are last.
    So forget they have fish and gas them with CO2.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  11. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    I thought that was one of George Lo's ADA-spec tanks? Does he copy the methods precisely, or are there some differences?

    Interestingly enough, when I was in there recently, it seemed sheets of BGA were more of an issue than the bit of BBA. I wonder what's changed.

    -Philosophos
     
  12. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Yes, that's the AF tank.
    If you came by recently, then it's been entirely redone.

    Generally, the folks that sell ADA follow whatever ADA tells them.
    ADA also offers the LFS vendors training in Japan. Not sure about the cost/who pays etc.

    BGA is common in ADA tanks, particularly in older tanks or where the ADA As have been used again. Pretty easy to figure out why that might me. Rather than adding more KNO3, they replace the sediment.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr
     
  13. Philosophos

    Philosophos Lifetime Charter Member
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    Ya, it was redone in exchange for something with a lot of dwarf hairgrass if I remember correctly. It was actually one of the healthier looking tanks, the BGA seemed to be in the rest.

    When you say training, do you mean they actually learn the principles of good aquatic plant growth and artistic design, or just how to use ADA's products, with strictly ADA style layouts?

    -Philosophos
     

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