Algae and nutrient levels.

fablau

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Gerryd;32052 said:
Hi Fab,

I was just echoing Tom's advice on the sump sealant issue and to let you know I did that and it helped a lot.......

If your tank is 'reef ready' it should have an overflow box (or boxes) in the corner or the back of the tank where the surface water spills through a grate or sorts and into the overflow box and then into the sump. There is a water level in the overflow box that is dependant on the height/configuration of the INTAKE tube that goes to the sump.

Do you have this type of setup?

Raising this water level in the overflow box will REDUCE the amount of 'waterfall' effect of the surface water coming into the box. This will reduce noise and reduce the amount of c02 lost due to the 'splashing' of the water into the overflow. The longer the waterfall, the more opportunity for the water to be mixed with 02 and for c02 to be lost due to the aeration effect.

This is where the Hofner gurgle buster can help.

Does this make sense?

I was able to simply make the intake pipe TALLER so that the water level in the box has to be higher for it to spill into the intake pipe. I just used a slip PVC connector and a bit more PVC pipe.

I played with my sump for a LOOOOOONG time before I went to a NU-clear canister setup. I no longer have c02 issues like I had before even though the sump was sealed and whatnot.

I have a pic somewhere that shows this, and I can post it tonight when I get home...........

Gerryd, you are right! I have exactly that kind of setup and I can rise the intake pipe in order to avoide the "cascade" effect (my tank includes the latest version of the MegaFlow system which is adjustable, so I don't need extra pipes :))

Thank you for the tip, I didn't think about this!

Best,
Fab.
 

fablau

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Tom Barr;32056 said:
Fab,

SAE= siamese algae eaters, make sure to get the true ones, the flase SAE's are worthless. Most vendors will know what you are after.
You may also do a google search, it'll pop up and check out the flase types so you know the differences.

These are the only effective BBA eater IME, IMO.

The CO2 is really the bigger issue. We can and should rule out the other issues like dirty filter, pruing etc, these are rather straight forward issues, the CO2 is the critical one. Once you go through this process, tweak the CO2, get rid of BBA(stop new growth), you will be a semi seasoned veteran:D

Beating BBA using CO2 and good care is a keystone point.

There are few tricks you can do to kill BBA that is there on rocks or appears while you are doing this:

Excel, general tank dosing, spot dosing.
Fertilizer salts dusted on the rocks and wood while doing a large water change. This kills most species.
Zebra nerites are said to do a good job, I really never found them that great, pretty though and would not hurt to try, they run about 3-4$ each, stock 6-10 per 20-40 Gal etc.
You can dribble or spray Excel on rocks or wood also. Do not ever spray pure Excel on plant leaves.
You can also use Peroxide, H2O2 like this.
Careful overdosing, H2O2 and Excel will kill fish and can burn plants.

More is not better! Patience goes a long way here.

I generally leave plant leaves on till I see decent new regrowth, then I trim off the old leaves, this might take few weeks. Many get impatient with recovery and trim everything, take your time here and make sure CO2 is good.

I'm partial to sumps if they are set up correctly.
Canisters lose no CO2 though.
Gerry's explanation is good.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Thank you for your tips and you encouragement Tom, I will keep them in mind in my fighting :)

I have spotted the following SAE:

Tropical Fish for Freshwater Aquariums:Siamese Algae Eater

Is that the real one? They become pretty big... how many of them would you suggest for my tank (75gl)?

Also, what do you mean with "IME, IMO" ?

Thank you again very much.

Fabrizio.
 

Gerryd

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IME = In my experience
IMO = in my opinion

SAE can get big so 6 is about right for a 75-100 gallon, not sure your tank size. Also depends on other fish you may have,

Try and get the 'true' SAE as a flying fox will not eat much algae.....I don't think the ones in the link are what you want................
 

fablau

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Thank you Gerryd, yes, my tank is 75gl and I have not so many fishes (4 otocinclus, , 20 neon tetra, 20 Red Minor Serpae Tetra, 6 Caridina Japonica shrimps, 6 Crystal Red shrimps), so maybe that number would be right... my only concerning is the size those fishes can reach! Well up to 4" in length! Maybe I could try to start with just 3? And some more Caridinas?

Do you think the following one is the "real" fish:

Tropical Fish for Freshwater Aquariums:Siamese Algae Eater


Thank you also for the IME and IMO, I really didn't get those! :)

Best,
Fab.
 

detlef

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Fab,

Gerry is right. 6 true SAE's (the ones with the black stripe in the middle of the tail fin) and about 40 C. japonica should be ok for the size of your tank. And yes SAE's can get big and grown up they are very difficult to catch.

For identification, have a look here: Algae Eating Cyprinids and the very fat one here: Siamese Algae Eater (SAE) - Crossocheilus siamensis

As for the nerites: No they don't eat BBA at all but are great in removing green algae from hard and even surfaces such as wood, glass or stones. They are said to lay hard to remove whitish eggs and sometimes search for other biotopes outside the tank. I keep only a single one and don't have such issues.



Best of luck,
Detlef
 

Tom Barr

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Yes, those appear to be true SAE's, the ones we typically get in Ca are fairly aware of the differences between the two types.

Wholesalers know the difference and hear about it if they shipped and sell the false ones. They get yelled at!

I gtet mine very small, as they get older, they get lazy, so I tend to sell them at 3".
To catch them, drain the tank and do a 80-90% water changes, no water, nowhere to run!

Much easier to catch that way. It will take maybe 1 year or more for them to get decent size and they will eat most of the BBA if you still have issues.

Main thing is to address BBA before you have issues after you remove them later.

They are nice fish and do eat normal food over algae, they will also go after R wallichii and a few other finer needle plants.

I can grow wallichi great, but as soon as I put them in the tank, they start beating it up.

Done this maybe 10 X, the same result. Some have claimed otherwise. Eery time for me it's always resulted in the same thing.

Otherwise, fix the sump up, overflow etc, tweak the CO2, clean things up good, add some Excel for 3-4 weeks daily etc. Wait and keep on top of things.

Things should be back to normal pretty quick.
Your plants will grow much better also once you fix the CO2, better than before.

Many say they just want the algae gone, that the plant growth is fine, but they really do not realize that the plant growth is suffering as well.

If you want slower growth rates from plants, less light is the best way to control that(also reduces the CO2 demand and every nutrient demand also/less algae growth rates as well).

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

aquabillpers

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FYI, in case there are still some doubters, from the report titled "Bad Water and the Decline of Blue Crabs in the Chesapeake Bay," by the Chesapeake Bay Foundation:

". . . Nitrogen and phosphorous pollution are causing algal blooms that kill underwater grasses needed for crabs to hide from predators. More than half of the bay's eelgrass has died since the 1970s."

Bill
 

fablau

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detlef;32066 said:
Fab,

Gerry is right. 6 true SAE's (the ones with the black stripe in the middle of the tail fin) and about 40 C. japonica should be ok for the size of your tank. And yes SAE's can get big and grown up they are very difficult to catch.

For identification, have a look here: Algae Eating Cyprinids and the very fat one here: Siamese Algae Eater (SAE) - Crossocheilus siamensis

As for the nerites: No they don't eat BBA at all but are great in removing green algae from hard and even surfaces such as wood, glass or stones. They are said to lay hard to remove whitish eggs and sometimes search for other biotopes outside the tank. I keep only a single one and don't have such issues.



Best of luck,
Detlef

Thank you Detlef for your confirmation about the number of SAE and Cardinia, I will follow that.

Best,
Fab.
 

fablau

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Tom Barr;32067 said:
Yes, those appear to be true SAE's, the ones we typically get in Ca are fairly aware of the differences between the two types.

Wholesalers know the difference and hear about it if they shipped and sell the false ones. They get yelled at!

I gtet mine very small, as they get older, they get lazy, so I tend to sell them at 3".
To catch them, drain the tank and do a 80-90% water changes, no water, nowhere to run!

Much easier to catch that way. It will take maybe 1 year or more for them to get decent size and they will eat most of the BBA if you still have issues.

Main thing is to address BBA before you have issues after you remove them later.

They are nice fish and do eat normal food over algae, they will also go after R wallichii and a few other finer needle plants.

I can grow wallichi great, but as soon as I put them in the tank, they start beating it up.

Done this maybe 10 X, the same result. Some have claimed otherwise. Eery time for me it's always resulted in the same thing.

Otherwise, fix the sump up, overflow etc, tweak the CO2, clean things up good, add some Excel for 3-4 weeks daily etc. Wait and keep on top of things.

Things should be back to normal pretty quick.
Your plants will grow much better also once you fix the CO2, better than before.

Many say they just want the algae gone, that the plant growth is fine, but they really do not realize that the plant growth is suffering as well.

If you want slower growth rates from plants, less light is the best way to control that(also reduces the CO2 demand and every nutrient demand also/less algae growth rates as well).

Regards,
Tom Barr

Thank you Tom for confirming that about the SAE picture I posted here. Also, are you telling us that for your experience they can eat Rotala Wallichii? I have Rotala 'nanjenshan' and Ambulia. This last one has very soft leaves, do you think SAEs could eat them?

Thanks!

Fabrizio
 

Tom Barr

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We are not saying that N and P pollution in natural waters is good, only that stable balanced systems are able to handle N and P fertilizers.

In the CB, they cannot control the light intensity, they cannot control CO2, nor control the seagrass biomass(they have been losing it for decades), no control over temperatures, they only have some control over N and P and apparantly not much there:mad: They also have sedimentation problems which kills plants.

Our systems are quite different, we have total control for the most part.
Much easier and more practical to control pollution in CB than doing a blackout, CO2 adjustments etc.

Also, the distribution of plants in natural systems is patchy.
As pollutants are added, the sedimentation can cause shifts i the fertility, in the redox and other changes that will degrade the system for plants. Algae blooms present in other parts upstream where there are few plants can influence the plant beds via sedimentation and floc. Basically bury the plants and invertebrates.

Pollution is a huge issue, I think no one here would argue they should not stop this at once, but it's not applicable here. One thing they can do, this is true for the MS river and other large rivers, is make constructed wetlands adjacent to the rivers and bays to mop up the nutrients and to provide wildlife habitat, increase property VALUES, increase fisheries/production, mitigate pollution from poiunt sources and non point sources, better treatment at the point source, and also flood control by adding wetlands along the flows of rivers.

A small % of poor flood prone land could be used to reduce up to 40% of the MS river nutrient load.

When you have too much loading and no where for it to go, no control over sun, temps etc, you have limited choices, we have many choices as aquarists.

I think it's important to know the differences and be able to discuss horticulture and growing plants and keeping away the pest we do not like, and also the natural systems that humans tend to have a bad habit of degrading.
I believe that most aquarists are environmentally minded, I have a hard time of seeing how someone could not be I guess.

There's been a long debate in FL about PO4.
Most of the research I've seen seems to point elsewhere, not PO4.

I agree in principle, but the Science itself is another matter when looking at these larger systems without as much control as we have.

It's much easier to contro, a system in the lab like aquarist do and make some conclusions, than it is to say things about a large bay. There's a lot more variation and variables. We can easily manipulate and have plenty of replications, there's only one SF Bay, or only one CS bay.

So take care of it, reduce as much impact as possible and let natural processes do their thing. Unfortunately, reducing the impact means it will cost more money. Businesses do not like paying to clean things up(See the Coal ash spill BS in TN- clean coal? Haha, my big toe), Westinghouse pulled the same thing in Bloomington IN where I grew up. So they stick the taxpayer.

So it helps to have good unbias Science to support a method to do something to help, helps taxpayers, businesses, the public health etc. Good legistlation can prevent future issues with good leadership(often very hard to find). Business can make a decent profit with green methods however(they cry they cannot, it's easier cheaper to say this obviously, part of the marketing game).

I do not mind paying a bit of my taxes for Wetlands and land acquisition for flood control, for pollution reduction, science to study the best methods to solve the issues, I do mind giving businesses free meal tickets to keep doing it and bail outs, little watered down slaps on te wrist when they screw up everything for the rest of us. If they tank by making bad chocies, so beit, they deserved to and that's the way the market makes and evolves better methods, they where not good enough. GM took all those Electric cars off the market here in CA, mashed them, so did Ford, they could have made a killing now if they had pursued it. Let them rot. Several of my family worked for them, so no crying about the workers, most of the stuff is made in China or over seas anyhow.

There is a preverse cost associated with ecological resources that are not included in economics. Health, fisheries, larger carbon sequestration, land values. These are rarely factored in if ever.

Okay, off the environmental soap box, but it's important and the wetlands offer a lot to everyone and can be used for many useful good things. Ask the folks in New Orleans about it.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

fablau

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Update: I have cleaned and sealed my filter, I have increased Co2 from 3 bubbles per second to 4 bubbles per second, I am adding Flourish Excel daily as suggested and actually I can see already some improvement! Algae seems to have slowing down growth... but I have a couple of questions I didn't ask you before:

1. PH is now lower than before because of added Co2: before it used to be around 7.0-7.2 now it is around 6.8-6.9. I keep monitoring it but it seems to get lower every day. Should I be concerned? What do you suggest about PH level?

2. I really forgot to mention that I turn Co2 off with a timer at night (it stops at 9:00 pm and turns on in the morning at 5:00 am). What are your thoughts about that?

Thank you again and HAPPY 2009 to everybody.

Fabrizio.
 

fablau

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further update: today I have regulated Co2 to around 3 1/2 bubbles per second because my Co2 permanent checker turned yellow. Of course the sump sealing could have improved Co2 retention so maybe 4 bubbles per second were too much. PH seems to be stable at 6.8. I will keep you posted.

Thanks.

Fab.
 

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It doesn't matter what the water pH ends up at. Changes in pH due to CO2 in the water don't bother fish. Changes due to added salts in the water can bother them. If you had a fish only tank, and the pH were dropping it would suggest that the water was becoming more contaminated with something like nitrates or ammonia, and you would be worried. But, in a planted tank, that isn't the case.

If you put 4 dKH distilled water, in that "permanent checker" which we tend to call a "drop checker", since Amano calls it that, will make that indicator show if you have close to 30 ppm of CO2 in the water, which we do want.
 

fablau

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I am only worried about water changes since my tap water is PH 7.5 and I would like to avoid sudden PH changes...

About the drop checker, yes, I use the following one:

CAL AQUA LABS Double Drop Checker | Green Leaf Aquariums

and while it used to be green with 3 bubbles per second, now with 4 bubbles per second it turned yellow. I have now decreased a little bit Co2 injection to something around 3 1/2 bubbles per second. I will re-check the results tomorrow.

Any thoughts about turning off Co2 at night and algae?

Thank you again.

Fab.
 

detlef

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Hi Fab,


big pH swings don't matter since it happens all the time in nature. What you should avoid by all means are sudden changes in salt levels of any sort. Otherwise fish will suffer from osmotic shock and plants will stop growing at best or die at worst. As long as the water which you use for water change isn't much different from tank water regarding salt amounts and temps then it should be fine.

Plants and fish don't need CO2 at night. While the guys from CAU --> Creative Aquascape Union seem to leave it on and have great success most aquarists shut it off. A good compromise seems to be starting to inject CO2 one hour before lights come on and to stop it one hr before lights off. As for algae growth to the best of my knowledge it doesn't matter if injecting 24 hrs or only during the photoperiod.

Caution with the cal aqua labs drop checker as the bulb for the reference solution will easily break off while cleaning! Try to set bubble amounts which turn the DC's indicator solution to a greenish yellow for the end of the photocycle. Then you're set about right.


Best regards,
Detlef
 

fablau

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Thank you detlef, that's exactly what I do! I stop Co2 one hour before lights turn off (9:00 pm) and I turn it on one hour before sunrise (5:00 am).

About the drop checker, it turns green almost yellow right at the end of the day with 3 1/2 bubbles per second and PH is stable at 6.8.

I need just to know Tom's thoughts about the possibility by SAEs eating my Rotala 'nanjenshan' and Ambulia...

Thank you again.

Best,
Fabrizio
 

fablau

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detlef;32166 said:
Hi Fab,


big pH swings don't matter since it happens all the time in nature. What you should avoid by all means are sudden changes in salt levels of any sort. Otherwise fish will suffer from osmotic shock and plants will stop growing at best or die at worst. As long as the water which you use for water change isn't much different from tank water regarding salt amounts and temps then it should be fine.

Yes, I forgot about that: the only change can be in the PH, the water is exactly the same as composition, salt density and temperature. I made a 50% water change this morning, PH rose from 6.8 to 7.1 and my fish are happy as always... thanks :)

Best,
Fab.
 

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SAE's seem to like some fine needle plants, they might not really eat them, but hurt them enough to hurt growth.
I've seen them eat R wallichi.

Just SLOWLY raise the CO2.
Be careful and watch fish etc.

Do this step by step. Do not get over confident you can add more without ill effects.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

fablau

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Thank you Tom, I will follow your advice.

At the moment I can't see yet big results, algae are still around and seems their growth has been a little bit slowed down. I will post more detailed results the coming days.

Thank you again!

Fab.