Tom Barr;48656 said:
I do not use a pH controller on any of my tanks, neither does Amano.
We got our reasons.
You assume that the pH and CO2 is the same at all points within the aquarium, some folks assume it's simply a relative measure(wiser) to overall CO2.
I'd not put too much faith in the results, in absolute terms.
Stick with general relative measure, the ppm's will vary a good bit throughout the tank for CO2.
A CO2 thermo meter showed this fairly well.
0.2-.4 range for fish is a decent, but involved gassing fish.
I start lower and slow and progressively work my way up.
Few seem to have the patience.
I tolerate some algae during this process, and sub optimal growth. I also know what the growth and tank should look like and can get rid of most algae easily.
New folks have troubles there.
Experience is perhaps the best teacher for getting good CO2.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Thank you Tom. From what i gather you are saying that as long as you keep your co2 between 20ppm to 40ppm your ok. However in the upper end your fish may not be so happy so start low and work up. Do you think a ph controller or the drop checker/bubble counter method does this better. Why? Do you think a combination of controller drop checker is the best method? Do you believe there is a best method?
jonny_ftm;48586 said:
A drop checker is put it and forget it, change solution every 1-3 months (I find that 1 month is not better than 2-3), adapt bubble count once, and voilà. I doubt PH electrodes are less maintenance, I used them for above a year. Even a good equippement will need a calibration every 1-2 weeks. Electrodes need to be changed yearly as they desperately deviate over time.
I calibrate my new probe two weeks after I get it and then every three months after that. It will usually be off .2. which is the difference of about 10 ppm co2. Easy enough for me. My last probe lasted several years without any problems. The only reason I replaced it was because it became sluggish to adjust.
I don’t have to count bubbles! I find it hard to believe you used a ph probe and found it more difficult then a drop checker. Perhaps you had low of a kh which causes ph to swing quickly and can make things a bit touchy.
jonny_ftm;48586 said:
With yoyo I speak about CO2. PH swings don't affect plants or fish despite all what is said around. Otherwise, how people here can breed and keep most fish using EI and Tom recommendations? CO2 affects PH slowly as it is a weak acid (H2CO3). Plants need soluble CO2, so instant variations of it will affect growth while PH will need time to adapt. Also, all PH meters have usually a +/- 0.05 tolerance range bfore turning on/off the CO2. That is +/-0.1 PH. Despite the precision advertised by most manufactures, aquaristic material is really far away from a +/-0.01 PH error margin. The truth is rather around +/-0.2. Add it to KH fluctuations and you get important CO2 fluctuations in your tank. This is the worst for plants especially under high tech conditions.
Yes the ph swing is not a problem for fish and plants but too much or too little co2 is. Get your co2 too high and fish will gasp or suffocate. Get it too low and your not benefitting your plants. I feel having a C02 concentration that swings between 37ppm and 23ppm (aka 6.5 and 6.7 ph with 4 kh) automatically at all times is better then guessing based on color and bubble count. I have done both and this just works better for me. Look at Amanos chart in the latest AFA catalog. You will see how much co2 varies throughout the day with your method. I bet the method I would be a much flatter graph.
I keep my co2 a little higher then 30 to compensate for possible meter error (however rare it might be) and as long as my fish aren’t gasping I know I’ve got more then enough Co2. My drop checker will confirm this. I still don’t have to count bubbles! I have yet to see KH fluctuation between weekly water changes. 7.5ml of baking soda in one of my water bottles during a water change and I always have a Kh of 4.
Also Milwaukee and pinpoint may want to debate you on ph controller accuracy but I don’t.
jonny_ftm;48586 said:
How can you explain many beautiful scapes with RO users and low KH then? Plants don't care about KH, yet some plants can be harmed by a high KH. Fish, on many tropical areas thrive in very low KH waters ususlally. Some waters have a high PH yoyo natively too, fish just doesn't care. Gh and conductivity are more important for some species
The nano in my signature is changed with RO + Gh. KH of tank is 1, RCS and plants are just so happy, despite I'm using rather "difficult" plants and shrimps.
I too have created a few beautiful scapes with strictly RO and I am not saying strictly RO is bad. I'm just saying I am getting better results from my plants and experiencing less touchiness in my water parameters by boosting the KH and Gh slightly. 3-4 is not a high KH but it is enough to give me much less ph swing and a higher ph which I wanted. Ro is usually less then 1 KH this is much lower then i think you would ever find in nature. Tap waer can be over 10. Mine is 15 or more.
I have a planted nano with cherry’s and CRS that I do absolutely nothing too except strictly ro water changes. No ferts of any kind or co2. It does great. I have an assortment of things in there from java fern, crypt, riccia, 4 types of moss, a few types of Anubis. All plants need are enough light, oxygen exchange, and some source of nutrients to grow and be beautiful. A herd of shrimp seems to provide the nutrients needed. That tank has a kh of less then 1 but it does not use co2 or get ferts so i don’t have to worry about rapid water parameter fluctuation. The elevated KH is to keep parameters more stable in the high tech tank.
jonny_ftm;48586 said:
As with nutrients causing algae theory, many people assume that because they have a problem (algae, diseases, plants starvation...) and identify "an outside the limits factor", then that factor is the cause of their problem. As with your assumption of KH, if this was true, then how do you explain that my tanks do wonderful with high nutrients, PH swings and very low KH?
Try raising you KH to just 2 and I bet your tanks will do better and your ph swings will be much less. I said nothing about nutrients. I am just about to set up an EI PMDD system with a peristaltic pump so I think we can agree here. My "Kh of 2 being better for CO2 absorption" is not an assumption at all. It was told to me by a fellow fish keeper who has been doing saltwater and planted tanks for longer then I have been alive! This guy really really knows his stuff.
jonny_ftm;48586 said:
Anyway, I won't continue debating the CO2 regulation via PH-meter and KH/PH effects on plants and fish as it was already debated and explained many times by Tom here on even recent topics. Just make a search and you'll see that there are many realities in this hobby. The EI method and CO2 management proposed here are something with a strong evidence based approache.
Other methods can work, but could put you away from the real cause of disorders when they do happen.
Yes. By no means did I intend your method is wrong and mine is right. Amano uses a method like yours. However I don’t think you can possibly say that a method like I use sets me up for some disorder that yours does not. Tom is brilliant for sure but I don’t think he would ever say that my method does not work or that a drop checker is a better method then a ph controller drop checker combo. I can think of at least 4 faults to both methods as well as 50 human possible human errors related to each.
EI and co2 management are different things. Yes one does depend on the other but the amount of ferts depends on the amount of co2 not the other way around. Both methods of adding co2 give good results but a ph controller is just more constant and you can’t debate this because it is fact.
When it comes down to it I think you just really want your “new” method to be better then when you used a ph probe. I assume you may have had problems with your ph probe method because you are using a lot of buffers or something. I t works fantastic for me. Look at the links in my sig and you can see proof. I had a habit of taking pictures right after I re-scaped rather then once things grew in but I’m breaking that habit now.
