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Adequate pump size for upgrade?

Discussion in 'General Plant Topics' started by Gerryd, Aug 1, 2008.

  1. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Hi Tom,

    I currently have the following pump setup for my 180 gal tank.

    1. 1800 gph Mag drive with ball valve as the main sump pump.
    2. 500 gph Mag drive with ball valve to drive my Mazzei 584.
    3. Output of Mazzei is directed to intake of 1800 pump.
    4. Output of 1800 pump is split to dual returns.

    I also have several small in tank pumps to help with flow/current. A RIO 400 and a mini Hydor (240 gph) and a Hydor 1 (400 gph).

    I would like to add an OC with builtin UV AND to plumb the Mazzei into one new larger pump and maybe eliminate one or two of the in-tank pumps.

    Flow would be similar to your 180 Starfire as follows:

    Sump pump to T. Then one split to ball valve and then to OC. Then the other split to another ball valve to Mazzei. This way I can control flow to both as desired......

    Then I would combine OC and Mazzei output (maybe) back again to one and then split again to the dual returns, or I could run the OC to one return and the Mazzei to the other......

    Questions.

    1. Would a Mag drive 3600 gph pump be sufficient to drive all of this? I found one for < $175.

    Flow at 5' is 2800 gph which is about the height of my tank and stand. The 1800 gph model is only 1125 gph at 6'. So I would make up the flow from all the smaller pumps.......

    2. Would it be better to use a larger diameter fittings, elbows, T, etc than the 1" required by the 3600 pump? I need to plumb from one side of the cabinet to the other (about 2-3') to add the OC, as my c02 setup takes up one side of the cabinet, and the sump takes up the middle, so some plumbing will be required.

    3. Shoud I instead just keep my current setup, but switch the 1800 gph for the new 3600 gph and add the OC to that line, and then use the 1800 gph to drive the Mazzei rather than the 500 gph? Then I have a use for the 1800.............Each has a control valve already, so can control the flow on both.

    I will replumb to make it minimal, but there will be an elbow in there somewhere :D

    I just want a pump big enough to avoid another upgrade if I ever add a second OC or something...:)

    Any other thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

    Thanks,
     
  2. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

    Gerryd you should look to upgrade to a real pump for that size tank and do away with submersible pumps. External pumps are much better at handling all that you are trying to do. Start looking at models that gives better head than than the submersible pump you are currently considering.

    Those high flow pumps will quickly loose their 'flow' when installed in situations that requires pressure and using lower flow, higher head pump will actually give more flow when it gets into your tank :)

    Any given submersible pump compared to a comparable external pump will always fall short....think of it as comparing any given speed laptop processor to an identical speed desktop, because of the different internals the desktop will be faster in every way.... get my drift. :)

    Based on my past readings I do know tom likes his Iwaki's MD40RLT :) so I will assume that is what he will suggest. I am a Panworld fan so they're going to be the brand I'll suggest. I'm currently doing a 3 NU-CLEAR CAN setup on my 90gal which will be powered by an PS200.
     
  3. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    A 'real' pump, huh lol

    Ok, so help me to understand how the MD40RLT rated at 750 gph at 5' of head and a 21' max head is better than the 24' max head of the Mag drive 3600 gph with 2800 gph at the same height.:confused:

    Am I getting caught up in gph ratings at specific head height?

    I know Tom likes them, but I am at a loss to see how these pumps compare with flow and output. Maybe more lasting and better built, but what am I missing?

    I am looking at the Panworld pumps now.......

    Any size you would recommend?

    BTW, if I go to an extenal pump, I may not use bulkheads to connect directly to the sump. I may want to not drill my sump and use some PVC to draw water from the sump to the pump mounted elsewhere......

    I do not mind paying for a slightly larger pump if this gives me more flexibility now and in the future re: configurations.....

    Thanks as always.......
     
  4. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

    This program is kinda old but it's still helpful and the higest Mag pump it goes up to is 2400 but it gives you an idea.

    Panworld and Iwaki are technically the same pumps so you can use the Iwaki model list to see what the Panworlds are. But keep in mind Panworlds have a bit more flow/head which is not factored. Also , a 100RT is the same as Panworld 250PS, the 70RT the same as 200PS, 55RT the same as a 150PS......etc

    Since you are including the OC you have to choose .75in for diameter in inches and use 15ft for the vertical height to factor in real world load.

    Another attractively priced pump is the GENX PCX pumps. While I have no experience with them, they seem to be a worthy upgrade and if it were me I would go that route before using a Danner Mag on my system again.

    A 3600 Mag pump should be compared to a Iwaki 70RT, Panworld 200PS or a Genx PCX70HP because all use comparable watts. Just a quick look at the charts shows at 15ft height the external pumps push out 1100~1250GPH. The 3600 Mag is at 1000GPH @15ft and performance drops greatly after 15ft.

    Have you factored in the heat you will add to the water with a 3600 :eek:

    We have to use 15ft ( well I do) height to take into consideration accessories (UV sterilizer, OC clear, Mazzei.. etc), 90deg bends, ball valves, total overall piping and still have good flow when it gets into the tank.

    If I had a 180 you best believe I would be using a 200PS or 250PS and whatever is needed to maintain healthy beautiful plants with pristine water quality.

    I use a Panworld 200PS on my 90gal and BTW sumps are made to be drilled :)


    Hope this helps.
     
  5. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    What program???? Was there a link?

    Ok, I am beginning to get it I think. Thanks for the model comparo examples. Helpful for sure....

    Well, this is the reason for the thread.......is that I am trying to improve with an END goal pump size in mind, so that I never have to revisit this issue..........

    So, would a PS300 be too large in your opinion?

    I see that the Iwaki MD100RLT is a Japanese motor only with 1" fittings. Is the only diff that there is no power cord? I can always reduce when connecting to the OC and/or Mazzei......

    I think either of these would be good for me...........

    I will check out the GEN x.....

    yes, for those that have the steady hand.......I was trying to avoid this effort.

    Ok. Back to research and planning.

    Thanks very much for the information.
     
  6. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

     
  7. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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  8. mrkookm

    mrkookm Guest

    I know they make bigger but in the US you will only find the 250PS. The Iwaki 100RLT & GENX cooling fan is loud so be mindful of this.
     
  9. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Mrkookm.,

    Thanks for the warning re the noise!

    So, after estimating the cost of:

    A new pump $300-400
    1 nu-clear ($150) plus extension ($115) $265
    UV sterilizer $100-300
    plus another $100 or so for the bulkhead fitting, PVC, etc we are now close to
    $800-1,000. :eek:

    So, in the meantime to help, I got a Hydor Koralia 4 at 1200 gph. Using this with the Hydor II and Nano I already have, and repositioning them all, I am getting much better flow and more/better pearling. Effect was pretty immediate within 30 minutes :D

    So, all together, almost 2000 gph of circulation/flow IN the tank, outside of the main pump. Huge difference!!!!!!!!

    Cost me < $100 and was done in 15 minutes of playing with them all......

    This is sufficient evidence that the upgrade will be well worth the expense!!! And that's not even couting the additional filtration and UV!

    This buys me some time to finalize my plan and purchase the hardware.

    Looking at it to replumb is going to take some time and effort. I want a good solid design before I start and spend that type of money....

    Thanks again for all the info and advice!
     
  10. Gerryd

    Gerryd Plant Guru Team
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    Update:

    1. Got a reconditioned Pan World 250PS from Ebay for $135 (thanks to a tip from mrkookm!). Awaiting delivery. 1950 gph at max 45' head. Comparable to Iwaki 100 mdlt.

    2. NC 533 awaiting delivery.

    No room for the NC extension kit under the cabinet, so don't need to get that.

    May consider a second inline NC instead if I have the room :)

    Still looking for a UV. Any recommendations are welcome.

    I will at least implement the ps250 and the NC canister. Will also plumb the Mazzei into this loop. Can always add the UV later.

    Thanks,
     
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