ADA product analysis test

VaughnH

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Can you get zeolite sand in Demark? I realize personal swimming pools aren't as popular there as here, but maybe there is some use for zeolite that makes it a product that can be purchased. With zeolite sand, having .5 to 2 or 3 mm particles you have a basis for possibly making a fertile substrate. It could be fun to try it there.
 

hangyong

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May 6, 2008
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sorry to have dug up an old thread, but where can I find this report?

I dun seem to be able to see it in the newsletter section.
 

nealf_2000

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Mar 15, 2008
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Tom,

Please include loss-on-ignition and extractable organic matter in your tests. I have access to an analytical laboratory and I could perform the suggested procedures. I don't have access to samples of ADA substrates, and I am not willing to shell out the dollars to buy them retail.
 

Tom Barr

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nealf_2000;25139 said:
Tom,

Please include loss-on-ignition and extractable organic matter in your tests. I have access to an analytical laboratory and I could perform the suggested procedures. I don't have access to samples of ADA substrates, and I am not willing to shell out the dollars to buy them retail.

EOM will be done, I'm not sure LOI is really going to be an issue, these are submersed sediments, they behave differently.

How much of a sample did you want? I can send you 500grams etc.
Regards,
Tom Barr
 

aquabillpers

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When I was buying computer systems, and I bought millions of dollars worth of them, the salespeople always wanted to sell "features" while I wanted to buy "benefits". That is a pretty standard selling/buying dance when technical products are involved.

Today, if I were buying tons of aquarium substrate material, I'm sure the salespeople would sell its chemical analysis, probably compared to scientific research studies from major universities. And that would be interesting.

But before I signed the contract, I would want to see how it actually performed with real plant growers. I'd want to visit them if possible, and at least talk to them.

That would be the real test of the product, and the one on which I'd base my buying decision.

Bill
 

naman

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Nov 12, 2005
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nealf_2000;25139 said:
Tom,

Please include loss-on-ignition and extractable organic matter in your tests. I have access to an analytical laboratory and I could perform the suggested procedures. I don't have access to samples of ADA substrates, and I am not willing to shell out the dollars to buy them retail.

Would you test for AMF please? (Power Sand and Aqua Soil)

Is it possible to determine what exactly is that organics in Power Sand?
Earthworm castings, "soil" from rice fields, amazonia river soil etc...

What about it's lability state?
Is it good starter for formation of bacteria colony?

Power Sand contains not only NO3/PO4 after all, as we read here often :)

naman
 

nealf_2000

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Mar 15, 2008
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Tom Barr;25155 said:
EOM will be done, I'm not sure LOI is really going to be an issue, these are submersed sediments, they behave differently.

How much of a sample did you want? I can send you 500grams etc.
Regards,
Tom Barr
LOI would get at total OM , ash content, and recalcitrant OM or non-extractable residues (NER)
NER = LOI - EOM.

I think it would be useful to know what portion of amazonia is actually organic matter. I could also do LOI on the NER of leonardite from several sources as a comparison. I have this intuition that Amazonia might be the NER left after commercial extraction of fulvic and humic acids from leonardite.

I think 500 gram would be enough, send me a private message if you want to make further arrangements.
 

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naman;25166 said:
Power Sand contains not only NO3/PO4 after all, as we read here often :)

naman

I've quite clearly stated 100's of times thus far on many forums, including this one, they it's coated with peat. You can see and dust it off.
We used ground peat as based layer going back 2 decades before ADA PS was available. Some used more, some less, I used less, ADA PS has even less than the dusting I typically use.

Additionally, many folks only add a little PS these days and most in the rear sections, not all the way across.

And.......PS shown no differences in growth responses in the 5 tanks I've used it in nor with Myriophyllum. As a control, we added some NO3(PS has primarily this, but not much NH4).

You know........You folks can have it tested etc as well
:cool:

As far as the specific organics, do you realize what the heck you are asking?
Have you ever done such analysis? Takes a lot of work and is not cheap.
If you want to do it, and share the info, knock yourself out.

I'll gladly send you a sample;)

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Tom Barr

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nealf_2000;25171 said:
LOI would get at total OM , ash content, and recalcitrant OM
(LOI-ASH)-EOM.
I think it would be useful to know what portion of amazonia is actually organic matter. I could also do LOI on the non-extractable residues (NER) of leonardite from several sources as a comparison.

I think 500 gram would be enough, send me a private message if you want to make further arrangements.

Sorry, brain fart there.
Loss of Ignition. We just did that last year for several sediments.

Sure. The Diamond Black brand or leonardite would be good and some worm castings as well. Just PM the address and I can send a batch of ADA AS and the PS. Any analysis you'd like to do if fine with me:p

I've used a newer method for PO4 plant extractable methods. Seems to work pretty well but I've not verified it with P32, well, because that's dang nasty stuff and I only care about CO2 and Nitrogen, let someone else do the P work:)

Just PM.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

naman

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Nov 12, 2005
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Tom Barr;25179 said:
We used ground peat as based layer going back 2 decades before ADA PS was available.

No surprises, peat and garden soil have been used in Europe since early 1900’s… Not to mention about China or Japan.
The same is for PO4/NO3 dosing with water changes (several decades from now).

Tom Barr;25179 said:
Additionally, many folks only add a little PS these days and most in the rear sections, not all the way across.

Yes, it is widely known. I do it with DIY PS. There is no sense to put PS if front to keep “water circulation” as substrate thickness is very small there.

Tom Barr;25179 said:
PS shown no differences in growth responses…

ADA never claimed PS will give any improvement in growth rates. :confused:

“Power Sand is composed of porous volcanic stones, to secure proper water circulation, and of organic materials including fertile peat, to provide rich nutrients for aquatic plant roots. Ideal conditions for bacterial activity and development of plant roots are created and maintained for long periods with Power Sand.”

They also claim PS has not only peat:

“Organic matter in Power Sand or other bottom fertilizers…”
+ “and of organic materials including fertile peat”.

Tom Barr;25179 said:
As far as the specific organics, do you realize what the heck you are asking?

As for this “organics”, I thought it could be done in much easier way – microscopy, check for particulate, for similar additives etc, not spectral analyses and so on...
The same as we can open the bag with “super miracle substrate additive” and say: hey, this is earthworm castings and some sand…
Or micros usually just Fritted trace elements.
To do this we need not only sumples but knowlege, other sumples, some lab equipment...
I guess you never used spectral analyses to define pumice and peat in PS.
You do not need NASA or FBI lab to see erthworm castings in fertilizers, right?

As for Mycorrhizal fungi, it would be interesting to know is it in PS and AS or no.


naman
 

Tom Barr

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naman;25212 said:
ADA never claimed PS will give any improvement in growth rates. :confused:

“Power Sand is composed of porous volcanic stones, to secure proper water circulation, and of organic materials including fertile peat, to provide rich nutrients for aquatic plant roots. Ideal conditions for bacterial activity and development of plant roots are created and maintained for long periods with Power Sand.”

Yea, but what the heck does all that baloney mean to you?
Providing rich nutrients for for roots?
Why do that unless it would show enhanced growth?

"Development of roots and bacteral activity."

That means better growth.

Now if it's a subtle thing, and it can only be seen over long time frames, well then..............by that definition it's not a significant impact on growth.

Now some argue that is "good" and helps the tank, I say that is baloney.
That's the same argument that Heater cable folks have been claiming for over 2 decades and it's all poppycock.

These same folks claim there's "so much we do not yet understand" (including the ones who come with these marketing items) about "life" as support for their use.

Now I do not think you have met Amano, I have and I can tell you, he's hardly the type for research but he's certainly the salesman.marketing type.
Few other aquarist that have met him would disagree either.
Nice guy, good humor etc.....but you will not get a straight answer.

They also claim PS has not only peat:

“Organic matter in Power Sand or other bottom fertilizers…”
+ “and of organic materials including fertile peat”.



As for this “organics”, I thought it could be done in much easier way – microscopy, check for particulate, for similar additives etc, not spectral analyses and so on...
The same as we can open the bag with “super miracle substrate additive” and say: hey, this is earthworm castings and some sand…
Or micros usually just Fritted trace elements.
To do this we need not only sumples but knowlege, other sumples, some lab equipment...
I guess you never used spectral analyses to define pumice and peat in PS.
You do not need NASA or FBI lab to see erthworm castings in fertilizers, right?

As for Mycorrhizal fungi, it would be interesting to know is it in PS and AS or no.


naman

They might have an inoculum for the fungi, it's cheap etc, perhaps some dry bacterial starters and the test screening you suggest, it is much wiser and more practical.

However, I've already looked.........:cool:
You can see the osomocoat like balls in there, you can see the peat, you can measure in a simple jar DI water test( say 100mls of water and 1 gram of PS, let soak for 1 day and then 1 week, then 1 month, take subsamples and measure for NO3, NH4 and PO4)

I do have a very nice microscope and it has a digital camera I can use, I use it mostly for algae. I suppose I could do that as well.
I just do not think, nor is there really any evidence that PS is some big mystery.
However, it's not too much trouble to look either;)

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

chris81

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Mar 31, 2008
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Hi Guys,

Im sorry but can anyone help me to find the document with ADA fertiliser analysis... All searches are telling me that the document has been removed.

Thanks for your help!!

Chris
 

Philosophos

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Greg is working on getting the newsletter back up. There's some issues with the latest forum software updates being smoothed out right now. Last I heard it should be available again within the next couple weeks.