260 Gallon WC Green Discus Planted tank (Huge D/L Warining)- Advice needed

[waruna]

G'day,

First and foremost English is my second language, so i may use odd words to describe things and they may come across arrogant/rude lol, apologies in advance.

Here's my setup:

Tank: 1850 x 700W x 800H

Filtration: 2 x Ehiem 2260 (one canister filled with matrix, the other with wool and sponges for mechanical filtration (i've added 500g of Purigen in to this as well) , return pumps upgraded to 2 x 3400l Eheim pumps

1 x Aqua UV 25W (turned on while lights are out)
Dupla Therm Set 1000
Dupla T control Alpha
Pentair Aquatics inline heater module
5000l Eheim inline pump
3 x Tunze nano pumps for circulation
Pinpoint PH controller
GHL 4 pump auto dosing system
1 x 2000l Otto internal filter

Feb 2011

ADA Power sand added

ADA Amazonia added

Plumbing completed

The two 25mm black pipes look like they are connected to the one sitting on top of the substrate, they are not. The black pipe on the left is the return from the two canisters, this sprays over the Co2 return pipe towards the right side of the tank. The one on the right is the return from the in-line pump which will be distributing CO2, in-line heating and the UV sterilization. I drilled more than 100 holes each on both pipes. This is the best way i could evenly distribute CO2 in the tank.

Electronic Co2 Regulator

Co2 comes on at 10.45 am/off at 9.30pm, starting PH is at 7.05-7.00, controller is set between 6.13-6.23. At the time of lights turning on PH is at 6.70. I can clearly see plants pearling as soon as the main 4 light units come on at 12.30pm. An air pump comes on at 9.45pm after the light have gone out, and turns off at 10.30am before the Co2 is turned on.

Inline reactor without PH probe

With PH probe

Lighting: (set 2) 2 x 112W 6500k LED units, (set 3) 2 x 9000k LED units (custom bulit from China), (set 1 ) 2 x 80W 6500k LED units for viewing

Set 1 on at 11.30 am/off at 12.31pm
Set 2 and 3 on at 12.30pm and off at 8.31pm
Set 1 on again at 8.30pm/off at 9.45pm.
Please note this is the current lighting times, i played around for a while and this seem to be ok..?!

 

[waruna]

(Sorry too mant pics for one post)

Feb 28th after adding the wood and filling the tank

Two weeks after adding more plants and 12 WC Tefe Greens. Most of the Java melted, they were in a very bad condition at the time of purchase, It's very hard to find good quality plants in the most isolated city in the world! Quarantine is very strict here in Perth.

After all the planting is completed (10.04.11)

Microsorium pteropus (Java fern)
Narrow leaf Java Fern
Microsorium pteropus Windelow
cryptocoryne wendtii tropica
Echinodorus schlueteri 'Leopard'
Cryptocoryne balansae
Blyxa Japonica
Nymphaea zenkeri
Echinodorus red melone
Anubias Barteri Var Nana 'petite'
cryptocoryne undulata
Crinum calamistratum

May 19th

June 13

July 5th tank at four months

July 12th, growth rate of Blyxa is crazy

Tanks at 5 months, today Blyxa pressing to the front glass

Complete set up with GHL 4 pump auto dosing system

Final fish list as of today

12 WC Tefe Green Discus
80 Cardinal Tetras
40 Bleeding heart Tetras
15 flying foxes
15 ottos
1 x Long nose whiptail
6 x Dwarf loaches
12 x Aeneus neon goldstripe Corys

Fert regime:
Mon/Wed/Fri Trace and Fe, Dry trace mix and up to 2ppm Fe dose each day (per LaMotte test kit)

Tue/Thu/Sat and after a 30% water change on Sunday Morning: KNO3, KH2PO4, K2PO4, CaS04

Daily MgSO4 dosing: 20g raises the level 2.47ppm

I consider my tank to be 800l for dosing.
No3: between 20ppm and 40ppm ( i have reduced the dose (initially 45ml), aiming for 20ppm)
KH2PO4: Before dosing .7ppm, i dose 2g
CaSO4: 30g raises the level by 10.35ppm
K2SO4: 20g raises the level by 15.4ppm

I have had Clado and GSA for almost two months now, since i've changed my lighting duration and to this dosing regime things have settled, no new growth. All of a sudden i now have BBA. Because of the crazy Blyxa growth i'm constantly trying to improve my water circulation. I'm struggling to over come algae, when i get rid of one type another appears, what am i doing wrong? Most importantly how can i improve the conditions in my tank?

Please advice. Thank you for reading my thread.

Waruna

 

[dutchy]

Nice tank. if your tank gets BBA, it has a CO2 deficiency. You have to ask yourself what changed. Did the reactor or something else clog? Or maybe it's just the plant growth causing more lag in the system? Has your pH sensor been calibrated well lately? I can think of multiple causes.
Btw, if I were you, I'd hang the pH sensor in the tank. This will give you a more realistic reading.

So I'd check all CO2 related equipment. If you want to control lag in the system, a good rule is that the desired CO2 level is reached one hour after lights on. If not, the system has to much lag and might not be able to keep up with the demand. Lag could be in an underdimensioned reactor, insufficient water flow passing the reactor, or just that the needle valve is not open far enough.

GSA is caused by low PO4. If you bump it up to around two ppm, growth should stop after around two weeks and you can remove any infected leaves.

Clado is harder, since it's almost a plant. Manual removal, good CO2 and good sized waterchanges should help you get rid of it, although this might take some time.

 

[feh]

This is a great tank.

 

[Tom Barr]

In additon to what Dutchy stated:

Hack the Blyxa back aggressively.

You need to prune it good and keep it pruned. While it grows fast, you might consider another species that is less work and less weedy. It will remove all the CO2 and leave the rest of the plants without any CO2, and then you get BBA.

You might consider Anubias in place of the Java fern, or use Needle leaf java fern, I think these might look better, another one that is good: Bolbitus, but CO2 needs to be in a better shape.
These can all be sold at the LFS as you prune them.

Perth, AU is not too bad either

I would adjust the CO2 up some what, about 0.1pH units and wait, watch and see.
Discus will turn dark and not behave the same as you get near 50ppm of CO2 even with good O2 IME.

So watch them closely and do not adjust CO2 without watching and waiting a week.
If the plants look better, less algae etc.............and the issue is solved, leave it alone and make sure to clean filters, prune regularly. etc.

I think you have the only ADA AS + Dupla heat cable tank I have ever seen

I know you do not need the heater cables in Perth but you'd NEVER use them in Darwin.

 

[waruna]

Appreciate it feh

Thanks for taking the time to read my post and advice Dutchy.

I have a spare PH controller, a few weeks back (and a few months back as well) i compared the two readings with one inside the tank in various places, the difference in readings were around .01, so I didn't bother taking it out. I placed it close to the surface and even between the thickest growth areas, but there wasn't much difference in the readings.

After reading your post I increased the bubble rate to 3 bubbles per sec, previously it was set to two per sec, I wanted to correct these and report back, that is why i didn't reply straight away. I re calibrated the controller last night. At the starting time (10.30am) of Co2 injection the PH was at 7.15 (it is a bit higher than normal after a water change on Sundays). By the time the lights came on at 12.30pm the PH was at 6.30. So i've adjusted this per your instructions. After reading Tom's reply I set the lowest PH mark to 6.15 and highest 6.25. My degassed PH is 7.45, considering this do you think my Co2 levels/rate are ok now?

I increased the PO4 levels a week ago and have not scraped the front glass, it's and ugly sight but i'm going to wait for two more weeks, this was suggested to remove GSA.

Clado growth has definitely stopped since I started my new fert regime two weeks ago. I did a big clean up before, even the old/left over bits are looking a bit pale and whitish in colour.

Hi Tom, thank you very much for taking the time to read my very long post, and for your advice, much appreciated.

Blyxa has turned in to a nuisance, I never expected it to grow like this, I guess I didn't research enough before I planted them. From all the photos i've seen on the net they seemed small and compact. It will be quite easy to get rid of the Blyxa since the roots are hardly buried. The growth rate and the invasiveness has always been an issue, I thought i'll do a re scape when i've learnt how to keep beautiful plants, I guess I wanted to learn from this set up first. But now I see how this could limit this process. Any suggestions for an alternative plant for the front? Less work the better

I do have a few Anubias, but they are hard to see, they might come out when the Blyxa are gone. I've always like Bolbitus, have seen them locally.. Thanks for the suggestion
The Discus start to get grumpy at around 6.15-6.18, they go dark and stop moving around than usual, I have been pushing it to the limit with them, after reading your post I increased it to 6.15, around 6.17-6.18 they don't show any discomfort. May be I should up this a bit more and leave it around 6.17? I figured I had an issue with Co2 and have been testing the limit a bit too much, now i know. Hopefully increasing the bubble rate would help with my algae issue.

I think you have the only ADA AS + Dupla heat cable tank I have ever seen

Im not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing now lol. Do you think there is no benefit having the cables? I've kept fish as long as i can remember, previously SW, Malawi and Tanganikan setups. I wanted to try something new, and learn about plants. When i was researching in to planted tanks having heating cables for nutrient transport was suggested by many, so i thought i'll install a set because i wasn't planning on taking this apart any time soon.

You need chillers and cold beers in Darwin

 

[dutchy]

Where was the pH 6.30? In the tank or on top of the reactor? Big difference. I doubt 3 bps is enough for that size tank, I'm doing more like 10 bps on my 180 to get the right CO2 level, however bps is a very crude comparison.

pH/KH measuremnts are also a very inaccurate way to determine CO2, a slight variation in measurement can make a difference of 10 or more ppms.

For me it's hard to say if your CO2 is ok now, You will have to watch your tank closely. If the BBA keeps growing, it's obviously not enough. Your discus can provide you a nice way to find the limit. If they start to show distress, then back off a little bit. This will be your optimum CO2 level. But be very careful with that and don't overdo it.

So do you mean GSA or GDA? GSA are small round spots and is related to PO4. GDA is the fine curtain of dust on the glass, where not scraping the glass for some weeks was the solution is some cases, although it never worked for me.

 

[AquaticJim]

Beautiful tank and workmanship.

 

[ArnieArnie]

Beautiful tank and workmanship.

Totally agree!

If he is pushing his CO2 limits would it than not be wise to power down the lights a bit and let everything grow slower (less CO2)? I would not be comfortable to test the limits of my fish (or his beautiful discus)? But who am I...

 

[waruna]

Hello again dutchy,

Where was the pH 6.30? In the tank or on top of the reactor? Big difference.

I compared the PH in the tank with my spare controller today after the re calibration, the difference was .01. Where do you suggest i place my probe in the tank? I can take a reading, compare and post the findings..

I doubt 3 bps is enough for that size tank, I'm doing more like 10 bps on my 180 to get the right CO2 level, however bps is a very crude comparison.

If you have a look on the Co2 regulator i use there is a black knob in the middle, this is the pressure knob, this also controls the size of the bubbles, i have fully opened this. From what i know most people set this at around 6-8psi, i could be wrong here?! I can increase the bubble rate more, I have already thought about this.

I stopped using the PH/KH chart long time ago, i also have a drop checker but i don't really look at it

To be honest i have been a bit frustrated with myself with this algea problem, nothing seem to clear it, so i have been testing the limits with Co2.. I've taken on board everything said here and have decreased the Co2 level a bit. I'll raise it slowly, i'll look for the signs in Discus. Today they are a bit more active, i think!

Sorry for the confusion, i have Clado, GSA, GDA and BBA. Clado and GSA are under control now, since increasing PO4 almost two weeks ago there are no GSA on any new leaves! I have GDA on the glass, so i am leaving it alone for three weeks. Is there any thing else i could do to get rid of this? I am hopeful that BBA will go away in time with correct Co2 levels

Thanks for your comments Aquaticjim and ArnieArnie, i am more careful with adjusting the Co2 levels now

 

[dutchy]

Everything seem ok as you describe it, and of course you have to be very careful with adjusting CO2. Plants can survive easy but dead fish can't be revived. So best is to do small adjustments and watch carefully wat happens over some days after each one.

Arnie is correct that if you are maxed out on CO2 a good way is to use less light. Less light = less CO2 demand.

Personally I'd always put the pH probe in the tank at a spot as far away from the place where the CO2 gets into the tank. This will give you a more accurate reading. Also eyeball the dropchecker and aim for lime green. Move it around the tank to see if you have any CO2 deficient zones.

As long as the BBA develops, you haven't reached the right level yet.

 

[Tom Barr]

Another thing that can help is decent water flow and some surface movement, just not quite enough to break the water's surface, but a decent ripple, this will help add more O2 and allow fish to breath easier.
This will not lose much if any CO2 this way, but add valuable O2.

 

[ShadowMac]

Instead of placing the pH probe post reactor, why not prior to the reactor? that way you are getting readings from tank water that has not passed through the reactor. I used that same system and had my probe on the inlet side of the reactor. It was a fussy reactor, very dependent on flow. If flow was reduced through the reactor so too was my CO2 addition. I noticed the differences because of the amount of gas that would build up throughout the day would be greater when flow was reduced, less when flow was good.

 

[waruna]

Thanks dutchy and Tom, i removed all the Blyxa and all the swords, have rearranged a few plants, Crinum is more visible now, so are the Anubias, they have grown nicely considering the conditions before. Co2 is at the desired range 15 mins before the lights are on. Over the next few weeks i'm going to see how things will be without all the Blyxa, will report back.

Instead of placing the pH probe post reactor, why not prior to the reactor? that way you are getting readings from tank water that has not passed through the reactor.

Hi ShadowMac, PH probe is placed on the inlet of the reactor, basically water passes the probe first and then to the reactor where it is mixed with Co2 (and through inline heater and UV), it would be pointless to place the probe right after Co2 is injected. The main purpose of this system is to measure the dissolved Co2 in the water out side of the tank, i thought this was obvious....?! The small pump in the reactor is useless in my application, it clogs up very fast since it doesn't get pre filtered, i have not noticed a decrease in flow, either way Co2 is completely dissolved by the time it comes to the tank. I have never seen any misting. Since i've increased the bubble rate it only takes less than 15 mins to drop the PH from 6.28 to 6.18, current targeted range.

I noticed the differences because of the amount of gas that would build up throughout the day would be greater when flow was reduced, less when flow was good.

Whats is the reactor connected to? I use a 5000l/h Eheim inline pump, i'm thinking of increasing the flow to about 8000l/h.

 

[waruna]

Update.


[attachment=891:name]

This what the tank looks like after the re-scape.. Algae problems are at a minimum these days.. GSA is very hard to control considering the mixture of plants i'm keeping. Glosso needs high light, Anubias and Java needs relatively low light levels, so it's a no win situation, but saying that as you can see GSA is growing very slowly Anubias leaves. I add 8g of KH2PO4 four days a week, so i don't think this is a PO4 related issue, more high light issue..?

Feed back criticism welcome.

Thanks to everyone for all their help and advice, i really appreciate it, i'm doing less work on the tank now, more sitting down and drinking wine

 

[Chunks]

Wow fantastic tank, I'm following this one! Beautiful discus, where did you get them from?

I'm in Wollongong NSW, pretty much the opposite side of the country!

 

[dutchy]

Looks good. If you still have GSA with high PO4 it's probably a CO2 issue. maybe you can try to raise it a little bit and see what happens over the next weeks. You need more than 2 ppm of PO4 to keep GSA out.

 

[Tom Barr]

Update.


View attachment 2569

This what the tank looks like after the re-scape.. Algae problems are at a minimum these days.. GSA is very hard to control considering the mixture of plants i'm keeping. Glosso needs high light, Anubias and Java needs relatively low light levels, so it's a no win situation, but saying that as you can see GSA is growing very slowly Anubias leaves. I add 8g of KH2PO4 four days a week, so i don't think this is a PO4 related issue, more high light issue..?

Feed back criticism welcome.

Thanks to everyone for all their help and advice, i really appreciate it, i'm doing less work on the tank now, more sitting down and drinking wine

Ahhh..........MUCH better looking, that's a show off tank now.

Gloss really does not NEED higher light.
It needs a trim, so the how to mow the lawn thread and the 120 Gal Dutch something or the other for an example.

GSA is going to attack with higher light and with lower CO2, so simply adding more KH2PO4 will ehlp, but it will not eliminate GSA on it's own. I HATE GSA..........and now rarely have any issues.
But this is due to good light, good CO2 and good PO4.

Anubias and ferns can handle low light, but they are fine with good light also.

Mow that Gloss lawn, then net out the trimmings.

 

[Tom Barr]

Before

1 Week later:

Yours is 5X or more higher than mine.

It does not get much light down in the front of the tank, but grows fairly quick. After mowing it to the nub, it comes back in smaller and does not pile on itself as well, but can after 8-10 weeks etc.
Then you mow again, and a week later have nice looking recovery.

Try this, I think you'll agree it's the way to go for Gloss and many other species of foreground plants.

 

[waruna]

Hi Chunks, thank you I believe these Discus came from Aquarium Industries. If you are looking for good Discus contact Nick from Sydney Discus world, you wont be disappointed.

Hi Dutchy, thanks for the feed back/advice. I add 8g of KH2PO4, theoretically this should raise my PO4 level by 6.98ppm.. So most likely then it is a Co2 issue.. Interesting thing is i don't get any GSA on my java anymore which is much much closer to the light units.. I've up the Co2 level by .01, will play around with this

Hello Tom, thank you for all the advice I'll check these threads.. Believe it or not i did mow this down considerably three weeks ago, and it's come up again so fast..! I'm struggling to balance the lighting in this tank, it's a bit complicated since i can't move around the light units and the front of the tank does not get much light..

I've moved the light units around, the 2 x 6500k units are in the middle now and the 2 x 9000k are on each end. I am considering to get rid of the Gloss altogether and put a layer of dark gravel, i find it a bit hard to fatten the Discus sometimes, the sinking pellets will be eaten off the gravel bed and in turn i'll get to see the Discus behaving more naturally then.
Any suggestions? Do i have to have a foreground carpet to complete this setup?


I have seen this tank Tom, one of my fav tanks, well done!