20gl shallow tank - Plant Farm

fablau

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Ok, measured how much Co2 I pump and I get 10 ml in one minute. Also, I put a little sponge at the bottom of the reactor to increase dwelling time:

36d999fd27da2462c5727814eb632f5a.jpg


I am gonna take a couple of videos for you...
 

Kyalgae

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Yes, I can tell you have more flow through that reactor than I do in mine. I figured my flow was a bottleneck for me. I like that bubble counter, slick. Is that glycerine or something in it? Thanks for the videos, and taking the time to measure the co2. Great idea with the foam, but I don’t have the darned pressure to spare. 10mL/min, so I’m not far off, that’s good.
 
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fablau

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You need to have enough strong flow to increase the pressure inside the reactor, but at the same time you don't want all bubbles to escape... Hence why I added that sponge at the bottom of it. Co2 dissolution increases a big deal but the gas doesn't build up ;)

Maybe you just need a more powerful pump to drive it? Have you seen the cheap pump I use?

And yes, that's spare glycerine I had from another Co2 regulator I bought years ago...
 

Kyalgae

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Yea, my next tank for sure will have a dedicated CO2 loop. I have no room in the tank for that right now, and it’s not setup to be a grow out tank, I still try to hide the equipment as much as possible in it. If I got a bigger filter/pump I think the noise would drive me a little nuts.

The next tank I do is going to have a suspended internal floor in the cabinet decoupled from the walls/base with some kind of silicone/rubber damper. The front door is going to be tight fitting, I haven’t quite figured out how to soundproof the venting......I digress.

Edit: here’s a video of mine for comparison.

 
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Oursaunougat

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I have the sera 1000 , and i have seen same problème if i blast to much CO2 , i have done same loop but the reactor is behind the tank, the pump is about 1000l/h and in the tank .
I will make some tests with bigger flow.
 

fablau

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Yea, my next tank for sure will have a dedicated CO2 loop. I have no room in the tank for that right now, and it’s not setup to be a grow out tank, I still try to hide the equipment as much as possible in it. If I got a bigger filter/pump I think the noise would drive me a little nuts.

The next tank I do is going to have a suspended internal floor in the cabinet decoupled from the walls/base with some kind of silicone/rubber damper. The front door is going to be tight fitting, I haven’t quite figured out how to soundproof the venting......I digress.

Edit: here’s a video of mine for comparison.


Yes, I understand I have no problems to have the reactor in this tank, it is not a scaped tank and it is in the garage. But I have a Sera 1000 in my 75, and I have some build up there at the end of the day. Not too much though...
 

Pikez

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Fab - you have got yourself a Kill Tank whether you know it or not. Especially the ghetto reactor. :cool: But your tank and its surroundings are way too clean to qualify as a REAL Kill Tank.

It's difficult to compare this tank with your 75. There are going to be numerous minor variables. Differences in substrate material, volume, age, CEC, and the CO2 levels, fish bio load, plant bio load, filtration etc. Yes, it's all minor, but add all of it up and you have systems that you really can't compare even if you have the same water.

You know what that means...right? Clear some extra space on that counter.
 
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fablau

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Fab - you have got yourself a Kill Tank whether you know it or not. Especially the ghetto reactor. [emoji41] But your tank and its surroundings are way too clean to qualify as a REAL Kill Tank.

It's difficult to compare this tank with your 75. There are going to be numerous minor variables. Differences in substrate material, volume, age, CEC, and the CO2 levels, fish bio load, plant bio load, filtration etc. Yes, it's all minor, but add all of it up and you have systems that you really can't compare even if you have the same water.

You know what that means...right? Clear some extra space on that counter.

Ah ah! I avoided the "real" surroundings in the video! I can't really say it is "cleaner" than yours... It is not! LOL! Of course, much easier with just one tank, compared with your fleet... Eh eh... I will clear more space for another tank sooner or later!

As for comparing the tanks, you are right they are anyway different (filter, light, fish, old substrate, wood inside, etc.).

This "kill tank" for now it is just killing me of trimming work! Good thing though... Harvested today a whole bucket of plants and sent to a couple of guys... Burr's mix is working!

I will take some new pictures in a few days...
 

deepgreen

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I always wonder how much substrate permeability affects plant growth with inert substrates and water column fertilization. Is your old substrate in the 75 gallon clean or clogged with older plant material? Maybe you could try to put a stunting plant in a pod in your 75gallon and see whether it would do better when the ferts can more easily reach the roots. Or alternatively replace a very small area with fresh substrate and see whether the stunting plants grow better there. Just an idea.
 

rs18alpha

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Very nice fab! Looking forward to seeing it grows. It is amazing what having a second tank affords. Even when all I had was a spare 20 I couldnt imagine being without it.

That's some top shelf engineering with the Sera haha, what size is the pump?

You asked about mosses, I have Christmas, Fissidens, China and Mini-christmas, all seem to appreciate higher dosing just like the plants.

This past week I went up to .3 dtpa+.1 gluc, with other micros adjusted accordingly, still adding a half dose on macro days. Seeing only positive results so far...except for Pantanal which was starting to act up again, which is why I made the increase to begin with :(
Hey burr, I was wondering if I was using enough mics my self?
I've been dosing my 40gal at 1.5ppm of CSM+B and .1 of Gluc every other day. I don't have the dtpa. should I get some dtpa or is the csm+b good enough?
Are you adding a half dose of each mic on your mac days as well?
 

burr740

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Hey burr, I was wondering if I was using enough mics my self?
I've been dosing my 40gal at 1.5ppm of CSM+B and .1 of Gluc every other day. I don't have the dtpa. should I get some dtpa or is the csm+b good enough?
Are you adding a half dose of each mic on your mac days as well?
Its impossible to say. The amounts you listed sound fine (I assume you meant .15 csmb and not 1.5).

As for additional iron, gluc is good for softer water and/or PH mid 6s and below. DTPA is better for higher KH and PH. The best thing to go by is how the plants look
 
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rs18alpha

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Its impossible to say. The amounts you listed sound fine (I assume you meant .15 csmb and not 1.5).

As for additional iron, gluc is good for softer water and/or PH mid 6s and below. DTPA is better for higher KH and PH. The best thing to go by is how the plants look
Actually I am dosing at 1.5 so I guess that's way off. What should my target ppm be for the CSM+B?
 

burr740

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Ok, I double checked and I am dosing at .15. But isn't that low?
That's a pretty normal range, but again it all depends on your particular system, how much light and all that, and most importantly what the plants look like.

And fab's journal here really isnt the best place for a lengthy discussion about it. It'd be better to make a new thread with all the relevant information so we arent cluttering up this one with long-winded, off-topic posts. :)
 

rs18alpha

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That's a pretty normal range, but again it all depends on your particular system, how much light and all that, and most importantly what the plants look like.

And fab's journal here really isnt the best place for a lengthy discussion about it. It'd be better to make a new thread with all the relevant information so we arent cluttering up this one with long-winded, off-topic posts. :)
I agree, I'll make a new thread. Thanks..
 

fablau

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UPDATE:

Ok, this tank really amazes me... I doubled dosing in the past 2 weeks, and all plants got back into shape.

Here is what I have been dosing for the past 2 weeks, 3x a week with water change every 2 weeks:

Fe DTPA 10% 0.15 ppm
Fe gluc. 12.46% 0.05 ppm
Mn 0.0625 ppm
B 0.0255 ppm
Zn 0.0325 ppm
Mo 0.00145 ppm
Cu 0.00165 ppm


The big winners are Ludwigia Repens and pretty much all other plants.... the only "negative" signs are some more curled and a little damaged leaves in AR. Also, the tips of Ludwigia Red seem a little bit deformed... see below and let me know what you think about it. My next 2 weeks plan is to dose the same regime without the Gluconate. As read on other threads, it looks like some people had issues with Gluc. Maybe that's the offending part? We must try and see...

Here are some pics:

Full Tank:

full.jpg



Ludwigia Repens
Roseifolia2.jpg


LudwigiaRepens and Ludwigia Red, note the tips of the Ludwigia, they are a little bit twisted... that wasn't the case before I increased dosing and added Gluconate:
Roseifolia-LudwigiaRed.jpg


Rotala Nanjenshan is growing pretty well despite the high traces. It isn't growing that well in my 75gl:
Nanjiasan.jpg


Stauro is a little shaded in this tank, and yet it grows super fast and the leaves are perfectly green... not the same in the 75gl, leaves there are a little yellow:
Stauro.jpg


Ammania Golden is growing great here. In the 75 never did well for longer than 1 week:
AmmaniaGolden.jpg


This plant never did well in the 75gl, hereit is growing like a weed (what plant is it? Can you help me to ID it?)
ID.jpg


And here is AR, they grow well, but leaves got a little more weavy and a little damaged on the sides. They used to be perfect before this new dosing regime:

AR.jpg

ARleaves.jpg



Some nice shots of the weeds:
RoseifoliaNenjasanTOP.jpg


Weeds.jpg



It is interesting to note that I am dosing in the same exact way my big 75gl tank, but I don't get quite the same exact results:

https://barrreport.com/threads/fablau-75-gallon-tank.14097/


Same water, same Co2, same light at the substrate... but of course we have a smaller tank here, shallower, more O2 thanks to the 24/7 air filter, a different filtering system (wet/dry in the 75gl)

So... seeing that plants grow better in this tank than in the 75, here are my hypothesis to explain why:

1. This tank has in some way more light because it is shallower. PAR increase faster from the substrate to the top. That could help plants to grow better.
2. More O2 could help more plants at night during respiration (but I use air aeration at night in my 75gl as well though!), but it could also help to oxidize traces faster (which, if that's a factor, could mean that less traces are available to plant for a longer time compared to the 75gl)

So... is the problem in my 75gl the fact I am dosing too much traces now for some reason? Or do I need more? Or something is out of balance I am trying to find out, and if you have any more ideas, please, let me know!
 

Greggz

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Fablau nice update.

Question for you. What kind of PAR are you at with these tanks? I ask because I noticed the L. Repens is not as deeply colored as it could be, and I am guessing that PAR is more moderate? And I have less success than you with any AR, and wonder sometimes if my PAR is too high for it? Does it prefer more moderate PAR in your estimation?

And FWIW, I also had issues with the L. Sp. Red with the Gluc. Mine got a bit twisted, and I had a few gray spots develop. It all cleared up when I stopped dosing it. Not saying it was the cause, but it happened right after three or four doses.

I'm sure you know that Burr (and I) has been dosing over twice that level of micros for a while now. He told me to lard it on for awhile, and I haven't seen any negative effects, but quite a few positive ones.

That Ammania Golden looks interesting. I'd love to try it, but my gosh it looks like it is more picky than Pantanal. Don't know if I need all the drama!:D

By the way, the title of the thread is fitting. That FTS looks like it's a real plant farm. Always enjoy your updates, as there is always some good food for thought.
 
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fablau

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Fablau nice update.

Question for you. What kind of PAR are you at with these tanks? I ask because I noticed the L. Repens is not as deeply colored as it could be, and I am guessing that PAR is more moderate? And I have less success than you with any AR, and wonder sometimes if my PAR is too high for it? Does it prefer more moderate PAR in your estimation?

And FWIW, I also had issues with the L. Sp. Red with the Gluc. Mine got a bit twisted, and I had a few gray spots develop. It all cleared up when I stopped dosing it. Not saying it was the cause, but it happened right after three or four doses.

I'm sure you know that Burr (and I) has been dosing over twice that level of micros for a while now. He told me to lard it on for awhile, and I haven't seen any negative effects, but quite a few positive ones.

That Ammania Golden looks interesting. I'd love to try it, but my gosh it looks like it is more picky than Pantanal. Don't know if I need all the drama!:D

By the way, the title of the thread is fitting. That FTS looks like it's a real plant farm. Always enjoy your updates, as there is always some good food for thought.

Thanks Greg!

Yes, it is a real "farm", I don't care about scaping here, it is just a "garage" tank, you know... ;)

Anyway, PAR is around 70-80 at the substrate, not more than that. At the top it goes up to 200 and more. I have pretty much the same in both tanks, maybe the 75 is a little bit less (60-70 at the substrate). Of course, with this 20gl shallow tank, PAR increases faster for any growing plant, so that can accelerate" growth in some way more than in the 75...

It is my understanding that AR likes high light, I see it getting better and better when it gets more light. Of course, I have no idea with PAR over 200...

As for dosing, yes, I know you and Burr are dosing twice as much, but with the fact I perform water change once every 2 weeks, I thought to go slowly... I'll try to increase dosing in the 75 seen it has some issues. For now, I think this 20gl tank is in the sweet spot, pretty much. Maybe I'll try to increase dosing again, but first I wanna see if by just removing Gluc is going to make any difference. I'll keep the rest of the "variables" stable.

Glad to know you had similar experiences with Gluc and Ludwigia Red. Hopefully we can overrule that element!

Thanks Greg, and please, keep the fantastic feedback coming!!
 

burr740

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Posted in the 75 journal that I think the 75 needs more micros. For whatever reason there is higher demand than this small tank, maybe the sheer volume in size/plants.

I used to think my 75 was more sensitive to "toxicity" than my smaller tanks, and later on the 120 exhibited the same behavior. Everything grew better in the smaller tanks.

Since using the custom micros Ive come to realize the big tank just needs more, not less.

Which was the logical assumption to begin with if you think about it. But at the time I was in the habit of looking at every bad leaf as a "toxicity" - and a lot of it probably was using csmb, for whatever strange reason. But its not the case now.

Lard it on, you'll see! :)
 
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