20 gallons High tank cycling questions

[Brian20]

well It maybe appar to be a noob question, and someone like me that have 15 matured planted aquarium in sunlight but well here we go:

First I have many experiences in sun light aquarium, the aquarium passes through many phases in the cycle and this were mine:

1. First it is filled with water, plants and substrate every thing is cloudy (depends on substrate)
2. the first 5-7 days all are clear and the plants adapts in 3-5 days.
3. this goes the difficult part, algae bloom!!!. In my first attempt the tank was all filled with 4-5 types of algae. It was nasty but (like it have sun light) the plants survive even in such conditions. The algae bloom continued by 1, 2 months and then dissapear in 2 weeks. The tank is full of plants and healthy now, very clear water and with minimal w/c. I need to ay that all my tanks uses a home made substrate (mainly mineralized soil and clay mixed) and this are the first tank in the test.

4. The final step is the best the balance step. The algae die or dissapear, all looks nicer and the plants continue to grow better.

Well my problem is that I have a new tank of 13? days old so it is in the algae bloom step, it receives a lot of sun light (3-4 hours of direct sun light) and first I dont want to cut down the light. All the plants are growing, pearling (without CO2 system) and looks nice and have more reds and more softer an strong leaves. So all are growing fine, the plants , the algae an the snails . Well the snail problem is under control by taking all by hand everyday. I removing the algae by hand (a lot of work). Is a fussy brown algae and a bit of cyanobacteria.
I add Kno3 to kill cyanobacteria and I make a wrong calculation and I now have 40 mg/l of nitrates. The cyanobacteria is dieing but the fussy algae is growing like there is no tomorrow. I make a w/c a few days back of 50% but still nothing good happened. I dont want to mess the cycle due I not want to lost the balance that is creating the system.

The problem is that i dont want to have the algae (that is normal to have in the cycle)

what I can do to prevent the algae from growing? I dont want to use algaecides because it affects the plants.

still I can make w/c without desbalancing the aquarium??

Im thinking to make small daily w/c and hand algae removal.

Still I not have fish, only a inoffensive small shrimp

Brian Soto

 

[Tom Barr]

Why not use drop cloth to reduce and control the lighting?
Take it off to look and clean the tanks etc.

Shade cloth can be purchased at most garden centers.
I use it to grow most species at the lab outdoors and use clay soils with a sand cap.

No CO2 etc.......

I go from about 1500 micmols down to about 200, so a 20% shade cloth is about right.

Sunlight changes season to season, I suspect you have decent results in spring and the fall, not so good in the summer/winter. However you simply do not need more than a few hundred micromoles, 300-400 at most, most plants do well at 40 micrmols........

You end up feeding the algae and having longer issues there.
Controlling sunlight intensity is rather simple with shade cloth.
Duration is much more difficult...........

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Brian20]

Well here (Puerto Rico) we not have a lot of variations in the seasons.

well I will think about the shading.

I remove some algae manually today, I will make small w/c , it the algae still grows then I will puit the sun block

another recomendations?

 

[Brian20]

well today arrive the downoi, there are little stems and many stems lost their leaves, only they have small leaves on top, 2 stems survive the trip intactly. All have healthy roots. Well What i can do for fast grow of the plants???

I make a large w/c today and remove all the algae that I can, I fertilize after with KNO3 (not a lot this time ) chelated iron and Micro (plantex). Also I use Excel. tomorrow I will fertilize with potassium and Phosphorous.

I saw today that some plats are withish in new leaves (top of stem). I dose Chelated Iron and KNO3, It can be a potassium deficency or a Phosphorous deficency??

 

[Biollante]

Can You Tell Us More?

Hi Brian,

I am not sure I understand the "white tips,” and actually it is the second or third time I have seen that referenced here this week.

Potassium shortage I would expect withering leaf tips as well as yellowing. If phosphorus were the problem, I would expect, if anything the leaves to turn somewhat darker green.

Can you scrape any off with your fingernail? If so, does the stuff smell?

Are the tips withering?

Is there a “feel,” slick, pasty?

Does the white area fall off, pull off cleanly?

I will do some looking around.

Biollante

 

[Biollante]

Silly Me!

Hi Brian,

Silly me, I should have thought of it, Calcium deficiency.

The fine folks at Aquatic plant nutrient deficiency symptoms :: FishGeeks :: Tropical fish - Marine Fish - Aquarium Fish - Pond Fish - Aquatic Plants had it right there, can't believe it didn't tumble out for me.

I have seen this before.

In your case where I think the plants were shipped, easy explanation for calcium deficient or in this case maybe depleted.

I had this happen to me back when I first moved here and was using DI water, because the tap water scared me, half-to- death.

Biollante

 

[wilsar]

i've read on another forum that using chelated iron, the process of exchanging Fe+ and Ca takes place and this in it self can be a reason for the deficiency. if any aqua chemists can explain further, im sure this would interest others.

 

[Tom Barr]

i've read on another forum that using chelated iron, the process of exchanging Fe+ and Ca takes place and this in it self can be a reason for the deficiency. if any aqua chemists can explain further, im sure this would interest others.

That does NOT occur, and I've never seen any evidence that it does in aquariums, The Fe is chelated anyway, so the Fe will not react with much other than the plant.

Ca and Fe transport is very different for uptake.

Ca is typically found in CaCO3 soils with high pH, this can block the Fe, which is more available in acid soils.

This is not an aquatic system that folks take this background from.
In otherwords, it's poorly misapplied information, on an entirely different system.

Information is NOT ......knowledge.

If this where actually the case, then Ca/Fe issues would occur for all aquarist, however, we can readily observe, this is not the case.

If it also where just a case of having a ratio or balance of Ca to Fe, then adding more of each independently or together would also show some pattern, I've never seen it or found it, havign gone from 100ppm of Ca++ to 6-8ppm of Fe, that's pretty high for both, and pretty much to zero ppm for Fe and maybe 5ppm for Ca++ at the lower spectrum.

If the Ca/Fe hypothesis where true, I have to ask under what specific conditions, not general web myth claims.........what ppms of each nutrient is required, at what pH and KH would this occur?

I have to ask because I have had a wide range of conditions for these and have never seen any indication of any such issues with plants.

These are testable hypotheses, we can test whether this occurs by adding the ppm's someone claims that it occurs at.

If a few folks say no, it had no effect, then some other issue is occurring.
It's much easier to test and rule something out than it is to assume that we have found a "cause".

That is far more difficult to isolate

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Brian20]

Hi Brian,

I am not sure I understand the "white tips,” and actually it is the second or third time I have seen that referenced here this week.

Potassium shortage I would expect withering leaf tips as well as yellowing. If phosphorus were the problem, I would expect, if anything the leaves to turn somewhat darker green.

Can you scrape any off with your fingernail? If so, does the stuff smell?

Are the tips withering?

Is there a “feel,” slick, pasty?

Does the white area fall off, pull off cleanly?

I will do some looking around.

Biollante

I think, I explained wrong.Im not too strong in english, im from Puerto Rico so here we speak spanish. Im only write english in the forums, i learn it in the school and in the university, so I can speak it not so good but i can try .

well, the white tips are in the leaves like cloriosis but that is not the case with KNO3 dosing. there are only in myriophyllum matogrossense, the top turn red and white . Yes I move it to more sunligh because they are in indirect sunlight. there are other plants like ammania bonsay that their leaves changed dratiscally from low light to high light, also the rotala green has changed. They turn in long but a little fine leaves with red whiteish color. I dose today but today in afternoon i make a w/c (yeah I lose my ferts ) tomorow I will dose again. I make the w/c because Im angry with the algae and syphoned all the algae that I can. Also clean the filter. Im very interested In mainly stem plants so I take out the driftwood with moss and they have a bad odor, like they are rotting (also have lots of brown fuzzy algae) this can be my algae problem? maybe they leach a lots of dissolved organics?

Well, the downoi are like stop in time, not grow but not die. I think that they are in the acclimatation proccess. the few leaves that each stem have are lime green. Im going to put CO2.

I not think that I have Calcium deficency because I use the same water for my 18 planted tanks and several other tanks seems very heathy.

Brian

 

[Brian20]

I put lava rock for biological media, this works?

 

[Biollante]

Red And White

I think, I explained wrong.Im not too strong in english, im from Puerto Rico so here we speak spanish. Im only write english in the forums, i learn it in the school and in the university, so I can speak it not so good but i can try .

well, the white tips are in the leaves like cloriosis but that is not the case with KNO3 dosing. there are only in myriophyllum matogrossense, the top turn red and white . Yes I move it to more sunligh because they are in indirect sunlight. there are other plants like ammania bonsay that their leaves changed dratiscally from low light to high light, also the rotala green has changed. They turn in long but a little fine leaves with red whiteish color. I dose today but today in afternoon i make a w/c (yeah I lose my ferts ) tomorow I will dose again. I make the w/c because Im angry with the algae and syphoned all the algae that I can. Also clean the filter. Im very interested In mainly stem plants so I take out the driftwood with moss and they have a bad odor, like they are rotting (also have lots of brown fuzzy algae) this can be my algae problem? maybe they leach a lots of dissolved organics?

Well, the downoi are like stop in time, not grow but not die. I think that they are in the acclimatation proccess. the few leaves that each stem have are lime green. Im going to put CO2.

I not think that I have Calcium deficency because I use the same water for my 18 planted tanks and several other tanks seems very heathy.

Brian

Hi Brian,

I still think it is likely to be calcium.

However, part of your description fits (maybe) Manganese deficiency that is much like an iron deficiency.

Focus on the red and white and give me your best description of the leaf and shape and such.

When in doubt or not sure go ahead and write in Spanish, a few of us can handle other languages and there are some fair translating tools around as well.

You are welcome to email me in Spanish if you wish.

Biollante

Hola Brian,

Sigo pensando que es probable que el calcio.

Sin embargo, parte de su descripción encaja (tal vez) la deficiencia de manganeso que es muy similar a una deficiencia de hierro.

Centrarse en el rojo y blanco y dame tu mejor descripción de la hoja y la forma y tal.

En caso de duda o no está seguro de seguir adelante y escribir en español, unos pocos de nosotros podemos manejar otros idiomas y existen algunas herramientas en torno a la traducción justa también.

Eres bienvenido a mi correo electrónico en español si así lo desea.

Biollante

 

[wilsar]

If the Ca/Fe hypothesis where true, I have to ask under what specific conditions, not general web myth claims.........what ppms of each nutrient is required, at what pH and KH would this occur?


Regards,
Tom Barr

The chelator part of iron chelate (chelos is Greek for tongs) acts as a tongs to hold and stabilize iron2+ or Fe2+ which then in theory delivers it to the plant. However, the chelator will not let go of the iron to the plant without getting something else in exchange and this is normally calcium or magnesium out of the water. In soft water, the iron chelate delivers the iron to the plant but then rips out the calcium out of the plant as there is no calcium in the water. This then causes a calcium shortage which results in these holes in the water.

taken from "http://www.apsa.co.za/board/index.php?topic=3413.45"

 

[Biollante]

GH Booster

The chelator part of iron chelate (chelos is Greek for tongs) acts as a tongs to hold and stabilize iron2+ or Fe2+ which then in theory delivers it to the plant. However, the chelator will not let go of the iron to the plant without getting something else in exchange and this is normally calcium or magnesium out of the water. In soft water, the iron chelate delivers the iron to the plant but then rips out the calcium out of the plant as there is no calcium in the water. This then causes a calcium shortage which results in these holes in the water.

taken from "http://www.apsa.co.za/board/index.php?topic=3413.45"

Add Barrs GH Booster.

Plants need calcium.

Biollante

 

[Brian20]

well, today nothing new but the downoi still not grow, what I can do? tomorrow i will put CO2. I use today excel, Nitrogen (KNO3) and Phosphorous (K2H2PO4 I think)

The algae still but not sign of growing.

I check about lava rock and seems that it not work so good but I need the biological filter? I only have one tiny shrimp and seems happy.

Biollante not worry I want to learn english very well because maybe I will live in the US someday.

 

[Tom Barr]

The chelator part of iron chelate (chelos is Greek for tongs) acts as a tongs to hold and stabilize iron2+ or Fe2+ which then in theory delivers it to the plant. However, the chelator will not let go of the iron to the plant without getting something else in exchange and this is normally calcium or magnesium out of the water. In soft water, the iron chelate delivers the iron to the plant but then rips out the calcium out of the plant as there is no calcium in the water. This then causes a calcium shortage which results in these holes in the water.

taken from "http://www.apsa.co.za/board/index.php?topic=3413.45"

But this does not occur

Just saying something does not imply that it is true or occuring.
In real systems, the chelator is left behind and often degraded by bacteria........not immediate removign Ca, and certainly not removing Ca from plant tissue, plants do not give up Ca++ that way, Cehlators are not some magnet that sucks out Ca++ from plants.

Internal plant stability is controlled at the cell surface by enzymatic gates, not just with some fanciful speculation that treats chelators like some active enzyme gates.

the amount of Ca++ would have to be so low, that it would be very limiting in and of its, self, so it would have nothing to do with the Chelator nabbing the available Ca++.

The amount of chelator left over after Fe uptake is minute. Plants only need a tiny tiny fraction of Fe relative to Ca, which is a macro nutrient.

Chelator kinetics is often a long debate in and of its self.
Plants use their own internal chelator and leave the chelator left behind outside the plant.

It does not exchange the the Fe for Ca in the plant. Even if it did do this, it would not be enough since the differences between Fe use and demand and Ca are simply put, enormous.

The plant could easily supply more Ca easily.

So it's really an issue of low Ca, not interactions, even if they did occur, which I've not read or found anything that support it other than some one on the web said so.

Most references suggest that the chelate goes back and reforms with free Fe, not Ca. It also suggest that bacteria break the chelate down afterwards.


regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Biollante]

well, today nothing new but the downoi still not grow, what I can do? tomorrow i will put CO2. I use today excel, Nitrogen (KNO3) and Phosphorous (K2H2PO4 I think)

The algae still but not sign of growing.

I check about lava rock and seems that it not work so good but I need the biological filter? I only have one tiny shrimp and seems happy.


Biollante not worry I want to learn english very well because maybe I will live in the US someday.

Your English is very good, only if you are unsure of your communication, use Spanish. Use Spanish if you are not sure, that was all I was saying.

In the strictest sense you likely don't "need" the biological filter, but it is still a good idea.

Porous lava rock should work quite well in the biologic filter, you do need to give it time to become active, especially with a very light bio load.

CO2 is good what is your dosing scheme?

Biollante

 

[Tom Barr]

Most references suggest that the chelate goes back and reforms with free Fe, not Ca. It also suggest that bacteria break the chelate down afterwards.


regards,
Tom Barr

More about this:

I looked up and spoke with a few folks, no one thinks this can occur and I've looked fairly well at this issue in the citations. I think it might be due to CaCO3 and high pH, vs Fe in chelators, where the high pH affects the Fe uptake in plants.

In very low limiting Ca solutions, we can also look at hydroponics where they actually have the ability to limit Ca selectively, there is no CO2 limitation either.

I'll say this about nutrients in general:
Liebig's Law of the Minimum, often simply called Liebig's Law, is a principle developed in agriculture that states that if one of the nutritive elements is deficient or lacking, plant growth will be restricted and not in its full potential even when all the other elements are abundant. Any deficiency of a nutrient, no matter how small the amount needed, it will hold back plant development. If the deficient element is supplied, growth will be increased up to the point where the supply of that element is no longer the limiting factor. Increasing the supply beyond this point will not be helpful, as some other elements would then be in minimum supply and become the limiting factor.

The synthetic chelates do not penetrate the root. The metal leaves the chelate on the root surface before the root takes it up. The citric acid inside the plant is the natural organic chelate in the transport of iron and other metals in the plant.
Here's the kicker I was looking for:
The electronegativity of the Ion in question:

For chelation:
Electro-negativity is the atom ability to attract electrons to it in a covalent bond
(cooperative bond). Stability increases as electro-negativity increases as follows: (eV units) Cu (1.9) > Fe (1.8) > Zn (1.6) > Mn (1.5) > Ca (1.0).

So in a solution, the metal having the highest stability constant with
the chelating agent will be the first to be chelated.

Ca is one of the lowest.

So it would be last.

Does this cause Ca++ limitation at the very small concentration of Chelator used for Fe? Very little Ca++ would chelated in other words.........
This also assumes that the Ca++ that is now chelated is no longer bioavailable for uptake like Fe was when it was chelated. However, the plant can take up Ca++ just fine with Chelated forms of Ca.

So this idea seems to fail on the amount of Ca++ bound by chelators, and the fact that the plant can take up the Ca++ in those same chelators that they took up the Fe from in the first place. the chelators do not go inside a plant and rip and remove Ca from the plant.

3 things there.
I'm not sure they can reconcile those
I sure could not.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[wilsar]

i thank tom for the time spent on questioning and answering my "information?"
also adding sorry for the hijack.

 

[Tom Barr]

i thank tom for the time spent on questioning and answering my "information?"
also adding sorry for the hijack.

No problem!
I like having some rather prickly questions that I'm not sure about to consider and look into.

More challenging than, "why do I have algae?"



Still, I think that those 3 main issues, limitation(Liebig's law), concentration of the water itself, ion specificity of the chelator of question, inability for the plant to take up the chelator intenrally, and the relatively tiny fraction of Cehlator to Ca in the water are issues that are not resolved by the theory put forth.

That's a huge thing to over come, so unless there are tracer studies done specifically with labeled Ca++, and labeled Chelator, it would be tough to show and demstrate that this is fact occurs.

Maybe it does........but I could not find any support for it.
None was provided by the poster there either.

None of it seems that logical based on what we already know about Fe and chelator uptake.

I'm very skeptical to say the least, I need some hard support to even entertain this. Not just speculation because it sounds nice.



Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Brian20]

well today I cant put the CO2 to work because I spend the time painting and accomodating the plants in the shop, also I want to put some poster of planted aquarium. I use today excel, chelated Iron and micros, yesterday I dose macros except potassium. The plants looks healthy between the algae . I need to get rid of the algae but dont know how. I can put many fish like otos to eat it or like SAE (maybe I cant find SAE) but what are the cause of algae? Unbalance? well the tank are new and I stupidly clean the fine sponge of the filter and put the rocks and today I have a bacteria bloom I think. I dose bacteria today and hopeful maybe tomorrow the water gets clean.

the main question how I can take out that algae??? Tom Barr says that sunlight is too high, well it can be for a uncycled tank because my other tanks receive direct sunlight too and not have algae bloom maybe a little algae in some spot but mainly all are very clear.

I need to wait that algae for itself die with time?