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120 gallon Dutch Planted something or another

Discussion in 'Aquascaping' started by Tom Barr, Jan 5, 2012.

  1. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Update , sorry for outside dirty glass/poor depth of field :) I plan some new plant species to be added this week and removed lot of downoi due to good sale price offer it.
    So some new changes are on the way.

    cd1291c3.jpg

    c96524c2.jpg
     
    maciek_L likes this.
  2. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
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    Shit man! Yealous!! Since you posted the pics, here are the questions :)
    - you have really cool Tonina's which species are they?
    - Is that the erio II ?
    - How much mmol is at the various places of your tank (at the substrate)
    - what Kelvin do you use for lighting (if more then 1, please specify all)
    - how is your lighting scenario (tubes/hours/day etc)

    Thanx
    Gilles
     
  3. Nitrivec

    Nitrivec Junior Poster

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    from left to right, what are the red plants please, and are there any specific requirements for them ? I have a low(ish) tech tank I am about to plant up. Colombo florabase substrate, 1.2wpg, 175L bare, will be dosing TPN+ and easycarbo to start with building up to EI ferts and pressurised CO2 in a few months time.
     
  4. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I just got some of the mini Lotus Tonina today actually. Pricy, but......they do branch better than these, the T fluv is a nice easy to grow species really, it must grow maybe 2" a week or more. The bunch is not uniform since I'm trying to get the stumps to sprout side shoots, about 5-6 have.
    This way I can fatten up the batch.

    No, that's Hydrothrix garderi, many think it's Erio setaceum. Erio Type 3 is about 2x as wide as Hydrothrix, which is much weedier than Erio's. The normal type of Erio Setaceum is about 1/2 the size of the Hydrothrix or if you see small stunted hydrothrix, they are about the same size, but growth pattern is different.

    The tank had about 65 mmol on the sediments, I've messed with the bulbs and have just gotten the ATI fixture 8x 54W, so that will be interesting.
    I'll only run light 8 hours, but 0-100% for two hours, 4 hours full blast, then 100-0% for 2 hours, which is about 5.5 hours total at full blast equailvalent.

    Likely be hitting 150mmol to 190mmol then.

    But not that long.........

    I've been playing with various bulb types and have stopped usign the Giesemann.
    I have some Aquawave purples(2), GE starcoat, and 2 giesemann aquafloras, and Geisemann Midday. I had mostly midday Gieseman prior.

    I like the color better now and have some ATI blue specials to add.

    But I'll pull the Tek Fixture down and sell that, then add thr ATI dimmer fixture tomorrow or Sat.

    I only run the light 8 hours on this tank.

    The ATI will add more light, but..........it will use less energy than LED's due to the spread and evenness and the dimmer controller functioning.

    Eg if I ran the LED's for say 9 hours, it might be equal to running this at say 6 hours.

    I like the plain old Erio cinerum for the CAM like succulent shape. They do extremely well.
     
  5. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Most of these red plants are actually pretty easy to grow.

    Ludwigia peruinesis
    Ludwigia "red"
    And Rotala macrandra in the back, there is also a little showing of the Ludwigia verticillata var pantanal.

    You might fair okay with some of them if the tank is shallow.
    Otherwise, wait till you get the CO2 gas tank and maybe 1 more bulb.
     
  6. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
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    Hey tom, confused about your mmol readings. First you say you have 65mmol, then you say you might hit 150-190mmol.. Is the 65mmol NOW and the 150 before your fixture change, am i reading that correctly?
     
  7. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    This is just an estimation.........I have ATI fixtures on my 70 gallons...........this one will have 8x54W ATI.

    Since it is dimmer controlled........it'll start at 0umol....then rise to 100% after 2 hours.........then the umol will likely be about 150umol or more maybe.at the surface of this tank if I drop the fixture down to say 25cm above the water, if I raise it to say 35cm-40cm, a more typical distance for me, then 150 is likely.
    This will last for 4 hours and then taper off.
    65 umol is what I had before running the 4x 54W at 35cm.

    With all 8 firing..........I'd get about 120, so 150 is pretty conservative, more likely will be in the 170-200 range.
    A lot of light........

    But.........not for a long time..........I've also though of splitting it to allow for the CO2 to build back up like Florin's tank.
    But things are growing like mad.......so I'll likely just do as I do with the other tanks and not fuss over it.
     
  8. Wet

    Wet Lifetime Members
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    Nice to see more folks -- especially you -- exploring what used to be known as the "noon burst" method.

    Kudos on tackling an Erio field, too. I don't think I've ever seen a nice field of the small guys.
     
    #8 Wet, Jan 6, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2012
  9. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
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    So you'll end up with 150 at the water level of the tank, and about 65 at the substrate level, right?
     
  10. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Huh?

    I did this 20 years ago..........
     
  11. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    No, those PAR readings are at the sediment!

    The tank is shallow and the fixture is wide.
    Maybe 70-90cm from the light to the plants.

    The idea is to only hit the light at such high levels slowly and and then only for a little while.......then taper off again.
    The controller allows this vs lots of timers and multi bulb muckery.

    I am not advocating high light for 8-10 hours straight.

    The 1600 Gal tank has a high light burst for 1-2 hours only, then the rest of the day it's low low light.

    This tank is MUCH easier to trim/manage.........and has mostly stem plants and lots of wiggle room for algae/good growth, so .........there's little risk, I am choosing certain species which respond to well to higher light without getting too weedy for my taste and goals.
    The ATI works better than the ADA fixtures and uses less energy to do it.
    Also cost less.

    Wet- I've seen one nice row of the smaller Erio setaceums, at AFA, it was pretty nice, but did not last long.......They only had 1-2 stems left that hung on.....over time.
    It might...be one of those high light plant myths that might be really a high light plant, at least for it to do well enough to scape nicely with it.

    More light = more growth, so more trimming and gardening, which is a goal here.
    I have not done high light for a maybe 5 years or more now, so it's time to remind folks, I have done plenty of high light tanks also. Folks forget.
     
  12. aquaticscapes

    aquaticscapes Junior Poster

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    Very nice Tom! Now that's my kind of tank! Love the colors. Regards, Don Matakis
     
  13. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I got some of the new plants in today.
    I trimmed some of the background weeds and then redid the Fissidens.
    I might just have a dash of the moss on some wood instead of a larger patch and might move the Downoi to that section, then try some other plants in the Downoi row.
    Not sure.

    Need a spot for the Tonina "lotus Blossom", this plant is about 1/3 the size of the regular Tonina fluvitalis.
    It's not a foreground plant, but a mid(I have 5 basic rows in this tank front to back, this one needs to be in the 2-3rd row back from the front).
     
  14. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    Took some light reading at max intensity with the ATI fixture.

    @12" from the water's surface: 500 umol.
    Middle along the sediment: 180-190umol
    Bottom corners/front, 140-150umol.

    Butt load of light.

    I'm removing a purple and adding another white colored bulbs and removing thh Aquaflora in the rear and going with an Aquawave red.

    Fish color is 10X better.

    I think I figured out how specifically ATI gets some of the increase in lighting, the reflectors are specific and do not cause spill over into the room nearly as much as the Tek.

    It's a huge improvement to the living area!
    LED's do this same thing when designed correctly.

    I estimated I'd get 175 umol or so, and that is just about right.

    I got 120 umol or about 45% increased vs Tek at the same distances.
    Now........I can use this increase various ways with the ATI..........I can dial down the % on the dimmer, or I can add a midday spike(or several small spikes) and/or shorter the photoperiod. I have many options.

    The fixture does not look nearly as bright, but......... the light meter does not lie.
     
  15. dutchy

    dutchy Plant Guru Team
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    That's a lot of light. And I thought I was using a lot with 80 - 90 mmol at the substrate. :) btw, the setaceum has really started to grow well with these levels.

    I agree that with more light fish do look a lot better.

    I also noticed the difference in PAR performance between different bulbs, up to 60%. That's also why I responded to Hoppy's graphs that it's just a crude as the wpg rule. The PAR meter is really the only right way to know.
     
  16. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    I think the Light curves are excellent for comparison reasons and to help get folks to think in those terms, but a light meter really is a much more useful and costly tool.
    Rules of Thumb will always be heavily used and lead to more uncertainty....and bickering........:)
     
  17. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    jan15th1202.jpg

    I've got some stuff crammed in while they recover and moved some things around to see and explore what works nice and looks good in certain spots, scape wise, this is lousy.........but it can be recovered easily and phased in/out.

    Background plants have done well and are fairly stable in the groupings I want.
    I need some more work on the front right, I have 2-3 pieces of wood that will make the border look better between the Fissidens and the C parva and the Erios. I'll trim the UG back and leave some open space there also.

    Right side has some more grow out to do for the pantanal/Tonina and I'm undecided on Downoi, it's a nice plant though.. so it's hard to consider removing it.
    I'll go through and make more distinction between the groups later on, that's a final trim and rework prior to a prime photoshoot.
    Or.........if I just feel like doing it regardless of the status of the group/s.

    I'm still playing around with various bulb configurations.
     
  18. Gilles

    Gilles Lifetime Members
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    Can you elaborate more on the technical stuff you use? Like the HOB filter, e.g. make some pics of that side?
     
  19. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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  20. Tom Barr

    Tom Barr Founder
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    The right side is going to get a rework this weeke/end etc.

    I'll move the Red pantanal one row over next to the large Erio type 3 which recovered nicely away from hungry Fire shrimp, we will see if it stays in good shape or not.

    Then the Tonina will move to the Pantanal's spot.
    [​IMG]


    Not sure what to do with the Tonina Lotus blossom, I like the plant, but cannot keep it close to the normal Tonina(which is a better fit for this tank in general).
    T. lotus blossom is a neat type however, so I'm very relucant to part with it.

    I have some error in a plant order, I was shipped A gracilius but got Nesaea crassilius, which is frankly rarer and a very nice red plant, so I may move the L peruiesis out and over the far L and add the Nesaea in that spot to allow it to fill in nice and fully. Then eventually get the Ammannia for the rear(I can fill in back there with most anything really).

    This will add another Red row and keep with the motif of every other one red and different leaf shape and texture.

    The new bulbs have turned the D diandra very red. I have some H hottoniifolia in the rear corner, but I might just remove it and allow the weird bright green plant I keep forgetting the name of (genus starts with a "P"). the grouping got too small I feel and "collectortisy".

    The wood is new and I've yet to reposition this side, but I shall in the week or so. The wood will soon blend in well with the other wood and I need to replant the UG on that side, it's about 4" deep right now.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    The corner has the Red lower growing hygro which is a nice low maintenance plant. It'll take a month or two to fill in in the darker corner.

    I'll need to thin some thing over on the Far Left side also, but most of the species will still stay as is.

    2 biggest issues are if/where to keep: Downoi and the Lotus Blossom.
    2 very nice plant species I'd rather keep.

    If they can find a suitable home, I'm 80-90% of the way there, then the rest is just pruning and less moving stuff around and trying out various species.

    BTW, light is only on for 7 hours, and it takes about 1 hour for the 2x54 W to come on and hit 100%, then the other 6 bulbs come on and it takes them another 1 hour to hit 100%, then at the end, both sets slowly drop off over 1 hour from 100% down to 0%.

    So the lights are only on full blast for 5 hours, the CO2 comes on when the 1st pair is warming up, so it's cranked well when the full set starts to fire up.
    The CO2 goes off about 45 min before the last bit of light hits the plants.
     
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