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120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!

Discussion in 'Journals' started by burr740, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    Looking at the photos of your tank in front of my farm tank (after trimming) it's like comparing Alaska to New York City :)) Looks like it's coming along nicely, still trying higher Zn levels ?

    The B. colorata's leaf shape looks too much like S. 'super red' in the photos. Maybe a fine leafed would give more contrast , hmm
     
    Nikolyator likes this.
  2. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    That's basically what the contest entry had. It was OK, I like the look of the big flat moss wall but this time Im determined to have some ''curtains"

    Still dosing the .2 blend almost every day, the ppms of everything is on the previous page.

    I think Ni has made a positive impact, although the 2nd week is when I took all the Purigen out so it's hard to say for sure. @Greggz said he noticed a difference too I believe
     
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  3. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Haha, thanks...I think.

    Zn has been 65 ppb for a few weeks now, seems favorable.

    Thats a good observation. I think the heights being so close atm makes it worse too.

    Ideally the bacopa will be a denser group (more stems) and be distinctly taller than the L red. The kimberly also needs to be taller than the L red. The similarity may stand out less when that happens.

    Will certainly keep that in mind though. When Bart pointed out that the Oldenlandia and bacopa were similar leaves too close together I was like, huh, hadnt even thought of that.

    So many contrasts to aim for, colors, height, leaf size and shape....whew!
     
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  4. nicpapa

    nicpapa Guru Class Expert

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    Im thinking that its beter to keep this tank with smaller leaves plants...
    Tank its big but in photo look like a small tanks 100lt...
    You must give more depth for this size of tank.
    Get 3-4 plants from front to back and it give some depht.
     
  5. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Thats a great suggestion and I totally agree. Definitely need to work on better depth

    And I really appreciate feedback like this from any and everyone. It helps to see things from different perspectives.
     
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  6. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Fert happenings:

    Micros Im still dosing the .2 blend almost every day. It continues to be favorable.

    Couple weeks ago I increased P from 2 ppm 3x to 2.5 ppm. Knowing that Pikez, Tom and Greggz all dose much higher levels I wanted to see what would happen. Ive tried higher levels before but not recently.

    Only one really significant thing occurred. By the end of the week, about 1/3 of the wallichii in the 50 had stunted badly. The tops completely shriveled up and turned green. This plant has rolled along for months now without so much as a hiccup. The only thing changed was higher P.

    Wallichii in the 120 was unaffected for the most part.

    So 60% water change, cut the worst tops off in the 50, back down to 2 ppm last week and things are fine again.

    Idk what it is about P and my tanks but every time I try to go up bad things happen. Its been that way for a couple of years going back to the high/low csmb days. It must interfere with something else is all I can think of.

    And still it's only one plant we're talking about here. Nothing else seemed to notice a difference.

    This week I just started 1.5 ppm 3x, gonna see how that works.

    Some pics from today

    Wallichii in the 50

    26285099798_5c4e95fe87_h.jpg

    In the 120

    26285110628_61a8473039_h.jpg


    Young Pantanal coming off stumps in the 75 (get ready @geektom ! :) )

    28377859089_9cb068fa30_h.jpg

    Bottoms

    39446768814_f67cf83b36_h.jpg


    The plan going forward Im gonna give the new P a couple of weeks to see if 1.5 is any better than 2.

    Then, if nothing happens to change my mind, Im either going up to .25 daily micros, or down to .15 - just to see what happens. Havent decided which yet.
     
  7. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Couple of nights ago I pulled the Nuphar and cut it down to about 1/3 of what it was. I think it's screwing up the whole scale of the tank being so big. It's most likely destined for the auction block but I still need to find a good specimen plant to use in the general vicinity. Something tall and green that doesnt get the diameter of a beach ball.

    The after:

    39258452675_bad36bf0f4_h.jpg


    Scored 4 Rotala sunsets from herns. Apparently the last 4 stems in the country that anyone is willing to part with. :p

    39258440835_427ab85efe_h.jpg


    AR settling in and starting to grow a little faster now. Really hope the new growth stays flat(er). Will slowly pinch the older leaves off as it goes

    (Penthorum looks rough because it was mowed down to stumps a couple weeks ago. No worries there, it'll come back with a vengance)

    40158487411_e2c2cbb320_h.jpg
     
  8. msb

    msb Junior Poster

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    Hey Burr, beautiful pictures.

    Do you have any algae in there :D BBA Some types of algae it seems easy to take care of, green hair types with new tanks, or spot algae on the glass will disapear but I still think of BBA as a disease that spreads and must be excised. Have you ever had to or tried spot treatments with excel or peroxide or other tactics. ive never seen shrimps or bottom feeders eat this stuff. Do you think it is important to have a "clean up crew". Stem plants seem easy, if you can grow the plant, you just toss the part out that got BBA on it but low growers or maybe a bulb type I think need a bleach bath lol. I believe that organics built up in the water is the cause but just changing out water and cleaning will not be rid of the stuff thats already growing on plants or am I wrong on this.

    Also, Ive been reading the Custom Micro Mix thread at TP, do you recommend any products instead of CSM+B.
     
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  9. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Thanks!

    Well do you see any algae?

    Haha, just kidding. :)

    Yes I get various types of algae just like everybody else. Most all types are related to plant health and/or clean conditions. A clean tank full of thriving happy plants wont have much issue with algae

    Too much light (as we all know) can bring on mostly green types in my experience, gda and gsa. But this comes back to plant health. Too much light drives plants to grow faster than available resources will allow - unhappy plants.

    Too much or not enough ferts - unhappy plants.

    The one exception not directly related to plant happiness might be dosing urea or ammonia in excess of what the plants can use, and what the BB colony can process. This can bring on green types and bba too.

    BBA is not a disease and it doesnt "spread" any more than any other type. It will come and go based on plant happiness and cleanliness. In my experience it is one of the first things to show up when plants arent happy.

    Then you have to beat it down with manual removal, and maybe little peroxide or excel treatment in the meantime while you figure out why the plants arent happy and fix it. And be sure to keep things extra clean. More frequent water changes is one of the best remedies for BBA, say 2x per week until it goes away. Algae hates water changes and plants love it.

    Tom says BBA is always 100% related to CO2, as in not enough, or irregular levels from one day to the next. I cant disagree and it still comes down to plants being happy. In my experience having stable co2 day in and day out is just as important as how much.

    Fluctuating levels will confuse plants even if they dont quite show it. Plants devote a lot of their inner resources adjusting to whatever the CO2 level happens to be. If its not the same every day plants are constantly trying to adjust, some can do it better than others.
     
  10. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    That Wallichii in the 120 is outstanding. We don't have many plants over here so to see one we do have and see it grown nicely is quite impressive.

    Interesting note on the P, I dose about 5.5ppm total for the week and looking at lowering it a bit next month. Do you think your change in Wallichi was due to the change itself or just didn't like the P?

    Tanks looking really nice.
     
  11. maciek_L

    maciek_L New Member

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    Thanks for sharing information on higher P related problems. I've observed the same situation many times in my tank. Higher P->induced micro deficiency to some more sensitive plants. This is probably caused by interactions of PO4 and Fe and other micros. Probably if you cut P much more you will observe better plant coloration, because of better micro availability.
     
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  12. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Thanks! Im very happy to have wallichii growing nice finally. For over a year it struggled along barely clinging to life, looking like this most of the time.

    29466169641_3725414319_b.jpg

    Never could get it right until ditching csmb/edta Fe and going to the custom blend.

    As for P, I believe maciek hit the nail on the head below. Its not because P itself is bad, but it interferes with something else, binds with Fe and possibly a couple other micros rendering both unavailable. And the byproduct of which may or may not be detrimental (I hesitate to use the word toxic)

    Im sure this happens to varying degrees under different parameters. Some folks will see it more than others

    Think you're absolutely right.

    A couple years ago the 75 had rolled along with about 10-15 ppm in the water column for a while. When I first made a drastic reduction it was like a light came on. Plants that had been stuck for months sprung to life and took off.

    Ever since then at various times Ive tried to inch it back up, it never goes well for whatever reason.
     
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  13. Bishop

    Bishop Member

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    Awesome , might have to experiment with it a little bit. Cheers

    Edit: Out of curiosity. When you had higher Po4 levels and stunting did you notice any deterioration to lower leaf health?
     
    #753 Bishop, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  14. Pikez

    Pikez Rotala Killer!
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    Is it me or is the wallichii in the 120 much better colored? What gives?
     
  15. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    That's partly because the ones in the 50 are still getting over the P incident 10-12 days ago.

    But it's mostly the difference between 85 PAR from this

    40144629862_97006c419b_b.jpg


    And 120 PAR from this

    40144639682_acdcffedda_b.jpg


    Front to back:
    6500K
    Trulumen Flora

    40177652861_b4611800bc_b.jpg


    ATI Purple
    3000K
    420 Actinic
    Powerveg 633
    6400K
    Zoo-med Flora

    39466134164_1867e187c7_b.jpg

    Typically you want more reds in front and blues in back for slightly better depth effect. But the 3000K and the Powerveg is so red/warm it helps to look through some blue first.

    Im still not in love with the color rendition on the 120. Ever since installing the moss walls all that green changed the game, havent been able to find a combo I really like since.
     
  16. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    This latest episode was less than a week so not really enough time to make a direct correlation. But yeah that can happen anytime something's not happy for whatever reason.
     
  17. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    I get this quite well.
    Wallichii in my grow out tank @ 75PAR is not so good, growing, not stunted, and not very pink.
    In the 80G over 110PAR it changes the game shall we say.
    30 stems turn into 80 or so way too quick, I've sold most off now just to be rid of something picky.

    I want 100PAR to be my limit, glass stays clean and tank is an easy keeper.
    L.cuba is most likely to be gone forever for this reason.
    Maybe one day I'll set up a 150PAR tank but not anytime soon.
    Trimming is my therapy in the eve, but not that much!!!:D
     
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  18. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    That is a statement that is very little understood, but in my opinion, very true.

    So many people chase ferts. IMO, lighting means at least as much. If it's not right, only so much everything else can do.
     
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  19. Phishless

    Phishless Lifetime Member
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    I have seen many complaints here and elsewhere and refrain from suggesting more light knowing full well it would improve growth and appearance.:confused:
    In the beginning I chose to go way overboard on LED's and rely on dimming, many do not have the option.:D
    I have very few pucks running over 60% duty cycle even today, @ 100% all would be an algae farm!:(
     
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  20. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Welp, the double dosing macros after water change experiment has come to a screeching halt due to a severe GDA outbreak in all 3 big tanks.

    It's mostly on the glass. The 120 has it the worst, not surprising because it has the most light, the 75 is next and the 50 is a mere nuisance level. When everything is right there's none at all. Sometimes I'll go 2-3 weeks without even touching the front glass.

    It started showing up on the front glass of the 120 about halfway through the first week. No big deal, just wiped it off at water change and turned the UVs on.

    But the second week it got worse, much worse in the 120. By day 3 it was seriously blocking the view.

    So day 5 I did an 80% WC on all three tanks. Dosed back the single amount of 10/1.5/10 and thats where Im staying for a while, 3x per week.

    If you recall I'd dosed 1.5x after water changes for I think 3 weeks prior. Plants seemed to like it. Then I went to 2x. Plants seemed to like that too for the most part.

    It has to be the culprit behind this GDA because its the only thing thats changed in recent weeks. I think after 2-3 weeks it finally built up to peak levels, which is too much

    The only plant affected is the Lagenandra in the 120. Probably wind up just cutting these two older leaves off but Im gonna wait a few days and see if it clears up by itself. This plant is amazingly efficient at ridding itself of algae once the cause is dealt with.

    38539299560_379b00747f_h.jpg


    Wallichii in the 120 aint worried about much of anything, already at the surface again.

    26477887588_c1cc67f8db_h.jpg

    Here's the pic from 9 days ago. That's why its best to start the tops out very short when you replant. If you start them out tall close to the sweet spot you'll be doing it every week

    26285110628_61a8473039_h.jpg

    Another interesting development is Hygrophila siamesis 53B in the 50 fattened up a lot over the past few weeks. Im thinking due to the higher macros, we'll see if the trend continues. Hard to tell from the pic but that one top is nearly 6" wide. Thats pretty big for the species, at least for me so far.

    26477894618_9a1a43e5e6_h.jpg
     
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