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120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!

Discussion in 'Journals' started by burr740, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    They arent perfectly flat but not too bad. Higher non-Fe compounds seemed favorable but I think the recent higher Fe is a little too much because some have started to pucker a little bit.
     
  2. Sepp0207

    Sepp0207 New Member

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    Hello burr,

    what kind of filter media do you use?

    Greeting
    Sebastian
     
  3. acinonyx

    acinonyx Member

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    How did you guys prepare the Fe-gluconate solution? Do you know Fe-gluconate is actually very unstable even in RO water and decomposes slowly over few days in dark? It needs very low pH to be reasonably stable. It is actually somewhat more stable in light. If I remember correctly this is due to backwards photochemical reduction of Fe3+ to Fe2+. Because of this, it is better to dose it as a solid.

    For a nice and reasonably easy read on this topic, try to google a paper titled "Pharmaceutical applications of Ferrous gluconate N. F." (since I still can't post links). :)
     
  4. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    So Happi on TPT wanted to see a close up of the Pantanal bottoms, might as well post it here too. :)

    From just now

    38445428085_179ffc218c_h.jpg


    The two in front were topped and replanted a few days ago. Look to the left, behind those two to see the bottoms of the tallest ones. It's seems pretty good all the way to the ground

    39293652682_ed2358c06b_h.jpg

    In other news got my ribbon from AGA today. Its pretty nice, well made and big.

    Woo hoo!

    27545467549_26f771b92b_h.jpg
     
    #704 burr740, Dec 26, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  5. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Bottom to top:
    Course sponges that came with the filters, actually 3 in each one to fill up the bottom basket
    Polyester quilting floss (buy it in big bags from wal-mart)
    Bio-balls/ceramic rings and Purigen (~250 ML in each filter)
    More bio balls and rings

    That is very interesting and thanks for sharing. I have a feeling you're right and something just went haywire.

    Also thanks for the email and pdf file, I'll try to attach it here in case others want to read it
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Just got some nickel in the mail today (NiSO4.6H2O) gonna start adding it to the micro mix, something like .5 ppb. I think it has very low potential for toxicity, gram for gram far less than Cu. So hopefully that should be both plenty, and safe

    For anyone not following the recent discussions in the TPT custom Micro thread, Ni is needed for plants to process urea. There's probably some/enough in my tap but there's really no way to know.

    And I was just telling Vin about a very interesting thing that happened yesterday, in all 3 tanks

    Ive been dosing a .2 Fe blend every day for about a week and a half. Yesterday was micro day, the 4th dose since last water change.

    Since Im dosing micros every day I did not add urea to this latest mix. I kept it separate that way Im not double dosing on macro days (its in the macro solution)

    So now on micro days I add micros from on bottle plus urea from another. Well today I forgot the urea. It was the first time in a long while without a daily dose.

    About an hour after the lights came on I noticed the 120 was already pearling more than usual, a lot more. Then a coupe hours later it was like a rolling boil, way more than usual. All three tanks were doing it.

    So... either the .2 micros have suddenly built up into a very positive thing, or the plants really liked not having the urea. Im leaning towards the latter, although it seems rather fast for such a reaction

    Im going to keep dosing the urea and see if nickel makes any difference, if not then Im going to stop urea and see what happens.
     
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  7. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Very cool Burr! Could you please tell us where and what Nickel mix you got? I see many of them on Amazon, some of them pretty pricey... just curious.

    Also, how much are you going to dose of it?

    And finally, about your urea discovery: why do you think plants would like NOT to have urea? Shouldn't urea be a positive thing to have for plants?
     
  8. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Got this - https://www.ebay.com/itm/201969601558

    .5 ppb. As mentioned above - from what I can gather nickel has very low potential for toxicity, gram for gram far less than Cu. So hopefully that amount should be both plenty, and safe

    Should be only positive unless there's zero Ni in my system, in which case plants would uptake the urea but be unable to process it. The chances that I have zero Ni are slim to none imo, but that is the main reason for adding Ni in the first place, because there's no way to be sure.

    And I wouldnt necessarily call what happened a urea discovery, it seems unlikely that skipping one dose would cause such a thing. But that's what happened in all three tanks yesterday, which is interesting to say the least.

    I skipped urea again today, made single doses of macros for all three tanks without it. Pearling is much greater just like it was yesterday. The reason I skipped again is to give the Ni a chance to soak in for a couple of days. I'll skip another day or so then go back to the daily dose of .3 ppm
     
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  9. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    The good thing about having all three tanks set up the same way is that I can be more sure about what caused something, or what didnt.

    All three tanks have the same substrate and tap water. Same filters with surface skimmers, similar flow, same type of co2 reactors. Same T5 lighting with PAR ranging from 90-120. A similar fish or shrimp bioload and they all get the exact same ferts.

    Let's say I change ferts and only one tank reacts. Well then it might be something else, biomass overload in the 120, low co2 in the 50, some other unknown in the 75.

    Its also why I like to keep some of the same plants in each one. If Ludwigia red puckers up in one tank but not the other two, then it's probably not the ferts but something else specific to that particular tank.

    So it also helps pinpoint other issues that may arise. Say a little BBA shows up in the 75...probably not the ferts, might be time to clean the filter...

    But if all three tanks have the same response then it's safe to assume it's a direct result of whatever change was made.
     
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  10. fablau

    fablau rotalabutterfly.com
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    Fantastic reasoning and info (thanks!)... yes, as you mentioned, you may find out that one tank, for whatever reason, need more dosing than the other, like in my case (hopefully!)
     
  11. acinonyx

    acinonyx Member

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    Burr, would you mind explain how you plant the stem plants? I have a feeling I am planting them too densely, because there is very often quite a bit of debris collecting in the middle of each bush, which I assume means the flow is restricted there. Or is that normal?

    Do you plant each stem individually, or do you plant them in groups? How far from each other roughly? I understand it probably all depends on the particular plant type (size of the leaves, diameter etc.), but could you give me a general idea and/or some guidelines how to do it correctly?
     
  12. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Thin, fine stuff like Didiplis, Wallichii, etc, I might stick 2-3 in the same hole (using tweezers) even Ludwigia sp red unless Im really trying to nail a particular shape.

    Thicker stemmed varieties I tend to do one at a time. From the plant's perspective I really dont think it matters. If you're getting a lot of debris in a particular group, then yeah probably a good idea to thin the base a little.

    In mine, a little debris in the middle of most groups is normal, not much...but a little
     
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  13. Sepp0207

    Sepp0207 New Member

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    Hello burr,
    how ist your current mikro-mix working? can you give us an update?

    Greetings
    Sebastian
     
  14. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Hey Sebastian, yes an update is long over due! :)

    Things have been crazy the past couple of weeks as Ive been setting up two new 20 gal tanks. More on that later. The three big tanks are all overgrown and crammed full of too many species, very little scaping going on in the 120. But that is about to change!

    The one constant these past few weeks has been a daily dosing of micros at the following ppms:

    Fe DTPA - .2 ppm
    Mn - .09 ppm
    B - .035 ppm
    Zn - .065 ppm
    Mo - .0025 ppm
    Cu - .002 ppm
    Ni - .0005 ppm

    Up until two weeks ago N was 5 ppm KNO3 3x per week, and daily urea at .3 ppm. I started noticing some pale tops in a few plants. Well it certainly wasnt a shortage of Fe, and the next likely suspect was nitrogen. So I added an additional 2.5 ppm KNO3, and with just a couple of doses the pale plants colored up again and everything in general seemed to really take off.

    Gotta say Ive never been real impressed with urea, so Im ditching it completely and starting KNO3 at 10 ppm 3x per week.

    Posted this in the micro thread on TPT but it's relevant to dosing 10 ppm

    Looking back to around a year and a half ago, the 50 gal went a few months at 10/2/10 NO3/P/K. Vin and I were trying to see whether high macros stunted Lythracae, specifically Rotala sunset.

    It was during this time I had some of the best sunset growth Ive ever seen, and havent been able to duplicate it since.

    28694487391_0dcef7945b_h.jpg

    28156555743_f7ac45425d_b.jpg

    Thats a main reason I feel confident going back to 10 ppm KNO3. No urea back then either. Fwiw micros at the time were .0187 ppm of each; csmb, dtpa, and gluc, 3x per week
     
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  15. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Here's some current pics how things are doing

    Rotala macranda variegated, Limnophila belem, Rotala wallichii in the 50

    38981081435_085aa9e8b2_h.jpg

    Wallichii in the 120

    28100219199_0179561f80_h.jpg

    Persicaria sao paulo in the 75. When this plant's leaves are flat and horizontal things are pretty damn good.

    25008747327_4c4bf06234_h.jpg

    ^ also you can see a few Pantanal tops here. It's not even a challenge these days, grows an inch a day and no longer stunts after a topping. I've moved it all to the 75, just gonna farm a small group for a while, not sure Im gonna use it in the 120

    Mermaid weed in the 50

    38981095585_02afad5cbf_h.jpg

    Ludwigia brevipes in one of the new 20s. It's been in a back corner of the 75 for a few months almost completely shaded, that's why its so green. Starting to color up nice after, four days I think

    39847999412_bf0f903a24_h.jpg
     
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  16. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Added some AR mini variegated to the 120. These were all split from two mother plants in the 75. Still a good bit of undulation but growing fairly well lately. The plants themselves were in bad need of some pruning attention. We'll see how it goes. Might put the regular here if these dont flatten out better.

    38981071385_67a1d4472a_h.jpg


    About a month ago I gave the Hydro japan a severe chopping. (spot the shrimp?)

    38981109505_4b938b60e7_h.jpg

    See all those white roots? Well you should've seen the backside of the wall, a thick solid wad of roots going down 4-5 inches.

    Which wouldnt have been so bad but since the majority were now just roots with no greenery attached, it quickly started to brown and rot away.

    After finally getting all that cleaned up, NEVER AGAIN will I use this plant here. Will probably go back to the regular Pennywort, at least part of the way around.
     
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  17. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Set up two new 20 longs in the back room.

    28100133509_0b8165c35a_b.jpg

    For co2 I copied @fablau 's 20, using an Ista reactor instead of a Sera. Seras are great, a 500 model runs the 50.

    Not sure about these Istas though. Getting a ton of mist running 2-3 bubbles per second. The powerheads are Maxi-jet 400s, rated at 110 GPH. They are a few years old. Not sure if it's too much flow or not enough. In spite of the heavy mist, which I really dont mind, the PH drops hard and fast. So I'll probably just go with this for a while.

    39848003632_44ad017335_h.jpg

    Was thinking about putting Aquateck 20s on the end right above the Ista's output. That would add a little more actual filtration and the current would blow the bubbles down better.

    For lights I wanted to go with T5s if possible, but I knew a good dual bulb with individual reflectors would be way too much. So I took a chance on Oddyseas which has only one reflector for both bulbs.

    Only 35 bucks each and came with 6500K bulbs. Currently running one 6500K and one Zoomed Flora

    38981089125_1441100b2b_h.jpg

    PAR in the middle area directly underneath is 75, that's about what I was hoping for. Too bad they're only 24" long and the tank is 30. Its not a huge deal because the powerhead and reactor conglomeration takes up 3-4 inches on the right. So I was able to cheat the lights far to the left and only be a couple inches short on both ends. PAR on the very end drops to around 35. Still plenty for a lot of things

    Substrate is blasting sand, same as the other tanks. Put down a thin layer of sand first then sprinkled in some Osmocote Plus, capped it off with the rest.

    Using about this much has worked out well in a few tanks

    28082286789_0064b15c36_h.jpg
     
  18. Allwissend

    Allwissend Article Editor
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    Hi Burr, thanks for the update. Just to confirm this is the conc. dosed every day 7x/week ? Not 1 full dose and 1/2 half dose as before ?

    What plans do you have with the 2 new tanks ? Control and experiment setup :D ? Even more micronutrients variations ?
     
  19. burr740

    burr740 Micros Spiller
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    Yep, full dose every day, or almost every day. I may skip a day here and there for no particular reason. Like on water change day if I use Prime instead of the generic brand that doesnt lock up metals., or the last day of the week. But for the most part micros are dosed every day.

    Im actually ready to admit that Ol' @Tom Barr was right all along - that micros themselves are definitely not toxic at these levels, at least up to the full old school .5 EI dose.

    Now...that doesnt mean a lot of various problems arent micro related - as in the result of using csmb/edta Fe in certain unknown conditions (too high PH being the current running theory, esp along with inert substrate) Because Ive repeated the same results both good and bad enough times to know...

    But the micros themselves, nope, not toxic. Ive been truly amazed these last few months watching things get better and better the more micros I dump in there.


    The two new 20s for now are going to run just like the other tanks. Their purpose is more floor space to grow things. Doesnt mean one or both wont turn into an experiment at some point though... :)
     
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  20. Greggz

    Greggz Lifetime Members
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    That's funny Burr. Everything has come around full circle. Crazy, isn't it. The amazing thing is you have grown great looking plants in both extremes, so my hats off to you.

    And I was having a similar thought today regarding T. Barr. When I first started in the hobby, I read some posts by him where he was larding on macros & micros into well stocked heavily fed tanks. Very high N/P readings, and fish and plants were healthy and happy.

    Well that's exactly what I am doing now.
     
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