Lighting Problem? Plants not growing....

fishluvr

Junior Poster
Jul 1, 2012
8
0
1
CA
I have my lights on with gas CO2 4 hours in the morning, then they turn off for a two hour break and turn back on for another 5 hours.

Problem: My plants are green and have been for months now. There are no signs algae or holes in the leaves. They are not burning or dying. My water parameters seem to check out okay and fish have been thriving happily for over a year now. The only issue is that they are not growing. They look like I just planted them all but its been months and some of the leaves are beginning to thin out a bit.
Temp: 78° F
Nitrate 15 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
phosphates - perfect
pH: 6.8
no ammonia

What am I doing wrong? They can't be in shock or anything because I acclimated them before putting them in the water. There is plenty of restored nutrients in the soil. I fertilize also with liquid fertilizer; 8 drops of Iron & Manganese (Kent Marine product) every day. I don't do water changes so there are no dramatic changes, only when I occasionally add fresh water to that thats been evaporated out (but I make sure its the same pH before going in). What am I missing? Cant figure it out.
 

Gerryd

Plant Guru Team
Lifetime Member
Sep 23, 2007
5,623
22
38
South Florida
Hi,

I would need much more detail than you have provide to posit a hypothesis....Plus, I have some issues with your phosphate measurement of 'perfect'.

That aside..

I have my lights on with gas CO2 4 hours in the morning, then they turn off for a two hour break and turn back on for another 5 hours.

If c02 is also turned off during the break, you are causing a huge loss of c02 just when they are peaking via the light. The fact that the light is also turned off simultaneously does not ensure that the plants also immediately stop nutrient demand/uptake.

If you must have a break keep the c02 on and shorten the break.

Can you please provide some more info:

Lights - type, # bulbs, distance from tank, etc.
Substrate.
Dosing info
Test kits and recent calibration dates (Just kidding but I bet they were not calibrated and thus are suspect)
Number of fish.
Plant species
Goals.

You know, information.

Sorry to come across as snarky but there is a lot that goes into plant growth and you have provided very little information to go by.
 

Wwh2694

Member
Dec 21, 2010
34
0
6
U just need to set ur lights on for 8hrs with ur co2 the same. Have fertz go on a daily basis 1 to 2hrs before lights comes on. 4hrs on and turn off not good for plants the will grow but it will be really slow. U don't see the sun on for 4hrs only and turn off after wards lol.. They need to have photosynthesis. My plants will only start bubbling after 6hrs on continues light and co2 and my timer is set for 8hrs.
 

Yo-han

Guru Class Expert
Feb 6, 2011
285
0
16
Netherlands
The midday break is usual more a non co2 thing, where the fish add new co2 during the break, not needed in a co2 tank if you have enough co2 and enough circulation.

About the 'perfect phosphate': I work at a lfs and last week someone came in as well with 'perfect phosphate'. I asked his value and he said it was 0. He thought this was perfect, but without po4, no growth. (But po4 causes algae he was told? ... :gw ... fill in the next 5 minutes yourself...)

But besides that, your tank size and type and amount of lights would come in handy for advice, maybe too little light?

And do you add traces? I only see you add iron and manganese, but your plants need other traces to grow as well.
 

fishluvr

Junior Poster
Jul 1, 2012
8
0
1
CA
My tank is a standard 55 gallon tank. I have ADA Amazonia soil, my tank has been set up for about a year now. As for the lights, there are two fluorescent bulbs (54 watts each). Since I don't change water, I only add the iron and manganese...the nitrates are created naturally in the water to 15 ppm. I've been trying to raise them slightly with Flourish Nitrogen to about 20 ppm.

# of fish: 25 (lots of schooling fish, black red tailed shark, 2 puffers)
Plant Species:
Amazon Sword Plant
Cyperus Plant
Dwarf Baby Tears
java fern
rotala indica
moneywort
spiralis
african water fern

Hope this helps. Lemme know if theres any other information required.
 

Biollante

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jun 21, 2009
3,210
3
36
Surprise, AZ
Usually Gerry Leaves Snarky To Me... Perfeact Phosphates- Please Enlighten

Hi,

Phosphates, perfect, please enlighten us.;)

As the usually un-snarky Gerry, snarkally observed, “There is a lot that goes into plant growth and you have provided very little information to go by.”

Without water changes what kind of filtration are you using?

How much Potassium, Boron, Magnesium, Molybdenum, Copper and so on?

What is this acclimation process, guaranteed not to shock?

Aside from perfect phosphates what are the water parameters?

What kind of puffers?

What fish are doing well with puffers?:confused::disillusionment:

Biollante
 

fishluvr

Junior Poster
Jul 1, 2012
8
0
1
CA
They are red eyed red tailed puffers 1 female and 1 male (they are with very small fish and don't nip fins if fed consistently every other day). I have a Fluval filtration system with Seachem Purigen. I don't have the equipment to measure phosphates but I went to my LFS the other day to get some more plants and they said the water phosphate measurements and other water parameters (above) were fine. They are not a Petco or Petsmart chain. It is a professional business that knows a lot about planted tanks and I realize that there shouldn't be a PO4 reading of 0 ppm.

Potassium, boron, magnesium, etc. are all found in my liquid fertilizer by Kent Marine Products.

As for the plant acclimation process and treat the plants like fish and have a drip system to slowly acclimate the plant to the new water conditions. I also trim off the more developed leaves that would burn off anyways over time.
 

Gerryd

Plant Guru Team
Lifetime Member
Sep 23, 2007
5,623
22
38
South Florida
Hi,

Now that the evil snarky Gerry has been left behind.....

You know that light is what drives plant growth and thus subsequent nutrient demand correct? The more light the more demand. When that demand is not met...you have growth and/or algal issues.

Here is what I think is happening:

1. You have too much light for the tank. 2x54w on a 55 gal for the plants you mention and w/o C02 IME/IMO is too much.
2. You are counting on the fish to provide sufficient water column fertilization. Plants can uptake from both roots and/or leaves, so is better to dose the water column with macros and micros to supplement your ADA.
3. Your 2 hours break is not helping at all as already stated. I would think about eliminating this if possible. If this is to extend viewing times, the plants will not really care if lights on is 1 PM instead of 8 AM.
4. You have sword plants which can be nutrient hogs. Additionally you have different species that may not be able to coexist w/o c02 addition. It can be done, but is harder and some plants simply will not do well w/o c02 or a supplement like excel.

Can you please elaborate on your filtration system? What model, how many gph, use a spraybar, etc. Is there additional flow in the tank.

I would most likely try raising the lights or removing a bulb for 2 weeks and do nothing else and see if things improve.

I would also ensure that your test kits are calibrated. If not, the measurements are suspect and cannot be used to determine root cause.

If you can elaborate also on your dosing regime, that would be great.
 

Tug

Lifetime Charter Member
Lifetime Member
Jan 5, 2009
1,150
9
38
Washington, DC
Cranky Old Farts.

I'm sorry, but if someone at a LFS told you that the level of phosphate was perfect didn't you think to ask what in the blue blazes that meant?

Both Gerry and Bio have a great deal of experience with growing plants in aquariums. I believe Bio started back when dinosaurs and PMDD ruled the day. My point is, if you are clear about the type of dosing routine you want I'm sure they can help. If you are more specific they would have a better chance then if you are not.

While some of your answers might seem to be unambiguous, I will ask for a few clarifications.

  1. Your goal, direct or desired result. This is difficult to ascertain. From the range of plants you are trying to keep together in one tank I might guess that you do not yet have one clearly figured out.
  2. The dose, the quantity of something administered over a specified period. Maybe it's just me but, "liquid fertilizer by Kent Marine Products" [sic] doesn't tell me what product exactly, how much you dose (please don't ask us to guess or read the label for the recommended dose, just tell us) and how often you dose between water changes. This is important when considering your goal.
  3. Lights - type, # bulbs, distance from tank, etc. Okay, two T5s approximately one year old but what about the rest of the information, like the brand and the distance that your two fluorescent T5s are above the substrate? Do you keep your tank near a bright window?
  4. Filtration, is important given the lack of water changes. How often do you change how much of your water? Which Fluval filter do you use? I am under the impression that Fluval offers a wide range of filters. :tongue:


While the technical aspect of this line of questioning is tiresome it is important. But, begin with what your goals are, i.e., low maintenance, slow growth, fewer water changes, etc.

As an example, you would like to raise the level of nitrate by 5ppm in your 55 gallon tank using Flourish Nitrogen. A 4mL dose will provide your tank with 5 ppm NO3. But, without the other peaces of the puzzle that little gem isn't going to help.

[video=youtube_share;rdSoRrTD9BQ]http://youtu.be/rdSoRrTD9BQ[/video]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Gerryd

Plant Guru Team
Lifetime Member
Sep 23, 2007
5,623
22
38
South Florida
BTW, could you please describe your c02 setup and how it is diffused into the tank? What about surface ripple and basic water movement? I forgot you are using c02. It is more than likely that your c02 is lacking as well. But, we shall see.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Gerryd

Plant Guru Team
Lifetime Member
Sep 23, 2007
5,623
22
38
South Florida
Hi,

I suggest you institue a regular series of weekly water changes. Why do you choose not to change water regularly? With a high fish load this should be done regardless if plants exist or not...
 

fishluvr

Junior Poster
Jul 1, 2012
8
0
1
CA
Thanks. I'll go ahead and start doing that. This guy at a LFS has these amazing planted tanks, over 50 of them in one store and they all were thriving so he told me about his more natural method that doesn't involve water changes. He said the water changes would cycle out the bacteria making the water "too clean for fish". I'm obviously an amateur when it comes to plants so I thought I would go ahead and try it...no growth but the plants are still green.

Thanks again for your input.
And how exactly should I be fertilizing. What do you recommend, is what I'm doing good but I just need to balance it out with how much lighting there is?
 

fishluvr

Junior Poster
Jul 1, 2012
8
0
1
CA
Answering all your questions:

1. I have a compressed CO2 canister with a bubble counter and bubbler diffuser that sends the CO2 almost directly into the output flow of my filter at a rate of 4 bps. This sends the CO2 circulating around the tank, you can see the tiny bubbles throughout the water. The output flow of the filter is positioned so it barely ripples the water surface.

2. I have the Fluval 305 for 70 US gallons.

3. Unfortunately, I don't know what brand of lights I have. I just know that they are from my LFS and they use the same ones on all their planted tanks. The aquarium is built into a desk so the lights are sitting directly on the water. I don't know if that is maybe a problem but I hope it's not because then I would have to reconstruct the whole desk. :(

4. The Kent Marine product that I use is a single bottle called Iron & Manganese..it has potassium and other micro nutrients but not those that encourage algae growth (that's directly from the bottle). I dose 8 drops from a pipette per day maybe an hour before the lights and CO2 go on.

5. I guess my goal is to have my baby tears grow into more of a carpet. I can get rid of the sword plants and replace it with other plants that like the same lighting conditions as the baby tears but I can't successfully grow the baby tears. They just sit there for months and they have very little roots. I gave them about a month to root and then trimmed them a bit but they just stayed trimmed for months.
 

fishluvr

Junior Poster
Jul 1, 2012
8
0
1
CA
This is what my tank looks like now and the other is what I dream of it looking like:
The majority of the green that you see in the left side of the tank is from the ferns which are thriving while everything else isn't.

[attachment=1131:name]

[attachment=1130:name]

aquariumsetup.jpg


IMG_5528.jpg
 

Gerryd

Plant Guru Team
Lifetime Member
Sep 23, 2007
5,623
22
38
South Florida
Hi,

Okay then, now that we all have a better picture of things, here is what I would do if this were my tank:

Try this for 2-3 weeks and see if there is any improvement.

Lighting -

1. Run an 8-9 hour continuous photoperiod. No more.

Filtration -

1. I would investigate either a larger or another filter for your setup. Your tank and fish list will appreciate it. Good for redundancy as well as all filters fail eventually...

C02 -

Could you please post a pic of the c02 bubbler in operation? Where is the outlet placed, etc? Is it too close to the surface where the c02 escapes too soon? Do you have a link to the product?

The c02 should be introduced lower down in the tank so it gets a chance to circulate. You need to see c02 bubbles all over...

1. Turn the c02 ON 30-40 minutes PRIOR to lights ON.
2. Do NOT turn the c02 off at all during lights on.
3. Turn OFF the c02 15-20 mins prior to lights out.
4. Over the next several weeks, SLOWLY adjust the bubble rate upward by say a bubble every 2-3 days.

Observe closely the reactions of the fish during these times. C02 increases and ill effects are not always readily apparent. Look for these things:

a. Fish breathing rapidly.
b. Fish clustering at surface.
c. Fish not as active as normal.
d. Reduced appetite with no other cause such as illness.
e. Darkened or different coloration.

If this occurs, STOP the c02 and introduce 02 via surface agitaton or pointing a powerhead at the surface. This indicates you have too much c02 for the fish or too little 02. Careful here as BOTH are equally important.

If you reach this stage, back off the last c02 adjustment and/or add more surface ripple.

DO NOT LEAVE FOR THE DAY AFTER INCREASING C02!!!!! C02 is a killer and can easily have an impact many hours later, even the next morning.

Canister filters are notorious for trapping c02. I have had issues the NEXT morning, hours after c02 was off, because of this. Introducing 02 24/7 alleviated it, but I switched to a wet/dry so is no longer an issue.

Surface ripple -

1. Due to the increase of c02 AND because it is good overal and should be done in conjunction with c02 use, I advise getting a small powerhead and while c02 is ON, point it at the surface to produce some surface ripple. This will introduce 02 to the tank, and while dissipating some c02, is better/safer for fish.

2. You can use your new filter for this purpose as well :)

Water changes -

1. I recommend a weekly 50-60% water change using a dechlorinator as appropriate.
2. Do twice weekly 50% for the next 2-3 weeks. This helps in myriad ways such as removing waste products and adding c02/02/trace elements to the tank. Good for organic removal as well. Fish benefit from regular water changes.

Fertilization

1. I recommend you read the EI Sticky thread and save yourself some money/efforts by using dry ferts and dosing the water column regularly. Macros/micros/and trace elements can all be added.

Water movement -

1. Get a powerhead or two (or the new filter) and ensure you get good flow all around the tank. You should see every leaf sway. Look for dead spots caused by plant mass and hardscape.

Remember that as plants grow more c02 and ferts are required and need to be increased to compensate or you will have deficiencies and poor growth.

Realize that there is a BIG difference between a tank using c02 and a tank that does not. I bet your LFS is not using c02???

If you have faith in their methods why do you not work more closely with them to get the results you want?

Not sure I can provide more/better advice at this time...Anyone else is more than welcome to chime in..

BE PATIENT...... Even with improved conditions, plants can take time to adapt. You should see some improvement within 4-7 days I expect.

Hope some of this helps somehow. Your plants don't look bad at all from what I can see. Can you post some more pics?

You may want to spend time/$ to subscribe/read Tom's newsletters on c02, ferts, substrate, etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Gerryd

Plant Guru Team
Lifetime Member
Sep 23, 2007
5,623
22
38
South Florida
Hi,

No disrespect to anyone but I would really like an elaboration from the LFS on this although I assume you are paraphrasing and stuff was lost in the translation...so will take with a grain of salt :)

He said the water changes would cycle out the bacteria making the water "too clean for fish"

Huh????

The natural non c02 method does not do MANY water changes as this changes c02 levels which affect plant growth. So, keeping things the 'same' is desired. That said, at some point organics need to be removed and new trace elements added.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Gerryd

Plant Guru Team
Lifetime Member
Sep 23, 2007
5,623
22
38
South Florida
Hi,

Re: your scape, may I suggest you trim the left side and push it back from the front glass? IMO, it is too close and a bit of distance may look pleasing to you...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Gerryd

Plant Guru Team
Lifetime Member
Sep 23, 2007
5,623
22
38
South Florida
This is what my tank looks like now and the other is what I dream of it looking like:
The majority of the green that you see in the left side of the tank is from the ferns which are thriving while everything else isn't.

Ferns in general are slower growers and is why they exist in many non c02 or low light setups...they can get by with less, but cannot then compete against say...amazon swords. Unless there are no deficiencies of any kind. Please google Liebigs law of the minimum....
 
H

Htomassini

Guest
I can appreciate that your lfs has a lot of nice display tanks, but when having water tested you should always know what the parameters are. At our store any reading above 0 is given a written reading to the customer. And I have never heard of making the water too clean for the fish. Tanks are closed end systems. Bio matter does not disappear. People who do the non co2 low light methods also do not over stock fish either.

Follow gerryd's advice and start dosing macro sand micros and follow up with the weekly water changes . I also suggest you get seachem equilibrium and start dosing it every other week. It will help with your nutrient uptake.



Henry tomassini
www.theplantedaquariumstore.com
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD