Starting new tank - codename Frankenstein - critique wanted

Biollante

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Of Dero Worms, Daphnia, Moina and Rotifers...

Hi Florin,

Well I am now a Google expert
:highly_amused: on co-culturing Daphnia and dero worms; I do not think that it is much different than culturing them in the tank, something I do with all kinds of tasty and/or helpful creatures.:)

I think these may be the folks that started the co-culturing thing.
:rolleyes:

The advantage of culturing them separately is not having to compromise on conditions and allowing high densities.
:)

Over fertilization is a common failure point for Daphnia and I assume the same would get the dero worms.

Another common reason for problems with Daphnia are Rotifers, a good procedure is to rinse the Daphnia with freshwater and a net sized to hold the Daphnia, keep the runoff as Brachionus (that are much smaller) are worth culturing as well. Most of the Bdelloids (80 million years without sex and counting) are usually not harmful, separating them can be difficult, strong water current and sieving is about the only as they are bottom dwellers. It is possible to get rid of Conochilus by adding a little manure to the culture.

If not over fertilizing than my next guess is that your “Daphnia Moina” had hitchhikers Brachionus are a common culprit.

I can assure you Daphnia and Moina are different families. Moina tend to be much smaller.
:cool:

Biollante
 

Florin Ilia

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I may be heading the way of the Staghorn

Hi,

The substrate blackness did not go away completely, I see some traces of it appearing briefly.

The plant melting continues, with only the Crinum and Nimphaea affected. I did not remove the Crinums like I said I would because they provide the favorite hiding spot for the only remaining pregnant P nicholsi. She has a humongous neck, it looks like it could burst, but as much as I stalked her I did not see he release fry.

The reason for the Staghorn subtitle is that, in addition to the existing organics excess, I am generating more when I feed the fish. Some of the food sinks to the bottom and they don't consume it, although they are hungry (they only eat from the upper part of the water column). And since snails and shrimp can't live in this tank, there is no cleaning crew either.

I did a new set of measurements today, before a 60% water change:

t=26.5°C
KH=20 ppm=1.1 dKH
pH=6.02
CO[SUB]2[/SUB]=29 ppm
TDS=293 ppm
ORP=210 mV
DO=7.61 ppm
NH[SUB]3/4[/SUB]=0.07 ppm
NO[SUB]2[/SUB]=0.016 ppm
NO[SUB]3[/SUB]=2.5 ppm

The KH consumption is accelerated. The value above is 3 days after a 40% water change. Also, I replaced DI water with tap water in the top-off tank, just to be able to keep the KH up.

On the other hand, there are traces of ammonia and the TDS is higher than usual. I attribute this to the rotting plants and to the dead snails.

Just for fun I am including a 13-day CO2 plot. Clicking the image opens it full size (it's big!)

120701co2surveyfrank.png


Florin
 

Gerryd

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Hi,

Can you explain why no snails or shrimps?

It looks like you will need to siphon out any uneaten food to reduce organics...I would also add another sponge or two somewhere for more bio-media...Never have too much, esp with incoming fry...
 

Florin Ilia

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Hi Gerry,
Gerryd;84173 said:
Can you explain why no snails or shrimps?
I very much wish I could explain it!

Shrimp are nowhere to be seen since I added the fish to the tank. Maybe some of them are still here. But even before the fish, they did not reproduce and a few of them died at every water change.

Snails just die off, although the conditions in the tank are, on paper, very good for them.

A lot of this long thread and of an older one is dedicated to figuring out what's wrong with my snails, both per se and as a symptom of the general health of my tank. In particular Biollante went to great lengths trying to help.

So far we just know there is an excess of organic matter but why this is toxic to snails remains to be seen.

Thanks,

Florin
 

Biollante

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Vacation In Bucherest This Fall, With Test Stuff (Can't Manage Maldives Like the 1%)

Hi Florin, Gerry, All,

I am completely befuddled, I have been trying to duplicate the situation, and the closest I come requires the use of Vodka and super glue.:eek:

Obviously, any uneaten food needs removal and less fed the next time.:)

  • For purposes of calculation, each gram of food, eaten or uneaten, produces 0.04-grams of ammonia.
    • In Florin’s case this is about 0.32-ppm total ammonia.

The disappearing bicarbonate suggests considerable production of acid.

The PP tests indicate a large amount of organic material; this went on prior to the addition of the fish and during a time of low feeding, little or no fertilizing.

I do not feel up to repeating everything in all the posts…
:disillusionment:

[video=youtube;FQ5ob9B9yD4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5ob9B9yD4[/video]
:highly_amused:
Biollante
 

Florin Ilia

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Hi Bio,
Biollante;84198 said:
any uneaten food needs removal and less fed the next time.:)
I need to film this to be more explicit, but the problem is not that I feed too much, rather that the fish eat only from the upper part of the water column. So whatever food sinks below 10 cm or so remains uneaten, even if the fish are hungry. With the wild current I have going*, a lot of flake food does sink below 10 cm.

I am thinking of getting some other food, that floats better and remains on the surface until the fish eat it. Any recommendation is welcome.

Also, I think I need to do something about the current - but on this forum I learned that water circulation is important - and when I tried to lower it I got biofilm and brown algae on the glass - dilemma :(

Florin

PS I did another 40% or so water change today, I think the KH consumption is accelerated.
_______________
*) slight exaggeration
 

Biollante

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Try Burping It...

Hi Florin,

Yes, the general rule around here is when in doubt more current!:highly_amused: I am as guilty as any one that point.:)

The high current is probably doing precisely what we want it too, at the same time it may be masking part of the problem.

The consumption of that much bicarbonate is another indication or manifestation of high DOC, or put another way it has quite a tummy ache. If you are not now, I advise adding baking soda to counter the losses.

The fact that the fish only wish to feed in the upper portion of the water column, especially with all that current, does not bode well.:(

I simply cannot get my mind around the possible source of organic material. That sump arrangement you have out to be able to support several overstocked tanks the size of yours, especially planted that heavily.:disillusionment:

We have to assume the disappearance of the snails and shrimp means that whatever quantities of stuff that made them up are no longer sequestered, adding to the problem... To state the obvious…:rolleyes:

Biollante
 
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Biollante

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Just Trying To Help I Am Sure...

Hi Florin,

I should have mentioned, the brown algae (whether diatomaceous or red) and biofilm are trying to help, I am afraid though they will just turn the tank into a soup.
:(

Biollante
 

client

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Everything in nature is trying to help, an end is a chance for a beginning, it says.

I am still trying to figure when will someone actually want to do something about that organic material. It has a mystery source but it has its place in there?


  • Anion Exchange Resin
  • KOH, ZnCl2 or ZnSO4 Activated Carbon
  • Sochting Oxydator
  • Even more siphoning and titanic care, it reads as maintenance

sochting.png


It's just hydrogen peroxide and some catalysts. Osmocote -like cheap. I like the beaker, it's useful as an overtime fertilizer dispenser that gets the things into the water column also depending on temperature. I asked Petex about products like these, not on this one specifically though, I am kinda oriented toward obscure manufacturers, so they (the products) are not so popular, to be heard, but Dennerle, for example, makes a very useful anion exchange resin based product. You like Dennerle. Any organic material would stick to it under your conditions.. Well, maybe. Organic acids like tannins, humus, etc are clogging it canceling its attractive power with ease. It's that effective. Uhm, usually, anion exchange resins are usually organic binders. What do you have to lose?
 

Florin Ilia

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Hi Bio, client,

If my calculations are correct, I need approx 0.8 tsp of baking soda to raise KH with 1 dKH in my ~130 liters of water. I added that quantity today via 2 x 0.4 tsp, two hours apart. I will monitor KH and add more as needed.

As for H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB], I will use this piece of advice:

Biollante;79849 said:
The recognized safe dose is 1.5-ppm Hydrogen peroxide,

  • about 0.067-ounces or 1.9-mililiters of 3% Hydrogen peroxide for each 10-gallon. (2-ml 3% Hydrogen peroxide per 40-liter.)
Dosing cyanobacteria or a known high dissolved organic carbon (DOC) can be done up to 5 times the “safe rate”
  • that would be ⅓-ounce or 9.5-milileter, 3% Hydrogen peroxide per 10–gallons is the maximum dose. (10-ml 3% Hydrogen peroxide per 40-liter.)
  • This is a high dose, 10-ppm Hydrogen peroxide and
    • you really should give it at least a day and a water change between treatments and
    • then only if you are sure there is enough organic material, besides your critters and plants, to be oxidized.
I am thinking of a dose of 25 ml 3% Hydrogen peroxide in the first day, then scaling back to perhaps 10 ml per day?

Client, that Oxidator device is interesting. The description is only available in German, it's about chemistry and I'm fluent in neither, so I can't understand if it simply dispenses H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] in the water or it performs some other processing as well.
115e3f02342e2ee09773109.jpg


Also, I could in fact add an activated carbon pad to the filter. Bio, what do you think?

Thanks,

Florin
 

client

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I guess it's my duty to.. let the pictures do their job.

oxydator.png


It looks like there is a ceramic catalyst, a very cheap thing, which gets the oxygen out of the solution of hydrogen peroxide. You may request a link or two on private. I am not selling the product. I am glad you did restart your thread somehow though. And that it was all because of the way you linked the things up.



 
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Biollante

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6-ppm H2O2 A Couple Times A Day... Desperate Times, Desperate Measures

Hi,

Given the calculated (my calculation) level of organic material start at 25-ml twice a day and perhaps if anything work up from there. 25-ml of 3% H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] should be about 6-ppm, which I will grant you is quite a bit and H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] is harsher than PP, but it is also quicker (1-step), cheaper and will not pull the DO levels. Use a baster or injection device of some kind and inject the H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] low (deep) and directly on or around any undesirable looking stuff.:)

This is rather a desperation attempt to oxidize organic material and boost the biological filtration.

I have been running my own tank approximating your organic levels and it appears that you may even be able to double or triple the H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB]; though do not get too carried away just yet.;)

Yes, I think the activated charcoal pad is good. For that matter, that super-duper powdered charcoal might be a good idea.:)

A bit about my simulations of your tanks, I have been running them for some time now and am even more convinced there is something in the water or somehow added.

The closest I seem to come to sustained high DOC conditions either is adding continually greater amounts of organic material or add Copper sulfate at sufficient rates to suppress but not kill the biological filtration.

So far, my filters, simple sumps, mechanical filtration and water spread by tea towels. Biological filtration using stainless steel dish scrubbers and recently (last 3-months) a variety of ceramic media I have been asked to evaluate. Into either, a bucket with some rock and a return pump or 5 or 10-gallon tanks with rock and a baffle or two for true sophistication. These seem to ramp up quite quickly to handle excess loads.

I have become adept at producing precise amounts of copper sulfate that suppresses biological filtration and does not kill shrimp or snails, but does retard or stop breeding and substantially reduces rotifer populations (principally by reduction in breeding, I think).

I think we pretty well eliminated copper as the culprit, but my understanding is that metal toxicities are rather similar. I have collected a good kit for screening for metals that I will bring with me.:)

I have read something about Client’s device, seems to me it uses a catalyst (since I see “Katalysator,” probably a good guess) to control the release of, or produce the H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB]. I will do a little reading…:)

Just saw Clients further post, I will comment later...:calm:

Biollante
 

Florin Ilia

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H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] treatment started.

Premium ROX 0.8 Aquarium Carbon bag inserted in an awkward position under the sump's own sponge.

One of the new nerite snails is now missing a patch from the shell - this symptom is also similar with my old tank. Except that this snail never had algae attached. Do people actually grow snails at this pH? :)

Florin

Edit: about one hour or so after posting the above, the pH grew about 0.15 and stayed there until now (three hours later).
 
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Biollante

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Battle For Buffering, Need To Try For pH 6.6

Hi Florin,

I keep snails routinely in the pH 6’s, granted snails prefer alkaline waters but as long as good amounts of Calcium are available, I have not seen a problem. My experience has been snails do not care for higher redox (ORP) values.

My guess is the main reason the algae on the shell has not happened is your aggressive approach is keeping the algae at bay, combined with your imposing a ban on Vodka consumption.;)

The rate of consumption of bicarbonates (all of your alkalinity is bicarbonate) indicates rapid acidification, essentially your tank is and has been for some time, “crashing.” All of the PP and water changes just mitigating the collapse.

The bacteria in the filters are capable of “operating” down into the low pH 5’s. Though as with many critters, the sudden changes can harm them and this can add to the cascade.

The H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] may be able to oxidize enough organic material that the bacteria can catch up, but until we find the source, it really just continues to be an ongoing attempt to avoid the crash.

Among the reasons for adding baking soda is to increase and hopefully stabilize pH as pH slips below 6.5 or so the bacteria we depend on start having a tougher time, remember if biological filtration were our main goal we would work to stabilize your pH in the 7.5-7.8 range. Maintaining pH in the mid-6 range is a tradeoff for efficiency of filtration and keeping ammonia as NH[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]-[/SUP] to protect the critters and allow the plants to help with control. Our preference is to use CO[SUB]2[/SUB] to maintain a stable under pH 7, pH 6.4-6.7 seems a good range.

It may be necessary to reduce CO[SUB]2[/SUB] to maintain pH in the mid 6’s if you cannot accomplish this through the use of baking soda. The reduction in CO[SUB]2[/SUB] however will probably add to the problem in that the plants will be consuming fewer nutrients.

In your case, something like 3.6-grams of baking soda should raise your pH 0.4. You need to be mindful of swings greater than pH 0.3 or so in 12-hour period can be hard on the critters. Given that bicarbonates are being consumed is the reason for the more aggressive dosing recommendations.

The high consumption of bicarbonate (buffering agent) is an indication of rotting material; biological processes tend to lower pH. In most cases, this is the result of a fairly large critter dying unseen, plants suddenly melting, rot in wood something of that sort, occasionally the die-off of a filter or population of worms, rotifers, daphnia or such.

I remain baffled and befuddled.:eek::(

Biollante
 
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Florin Ilia

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Hi Bio, thanks for the explanation.

Was it not for that pesky +0.15 pH induced by the AC and/or the H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB], I would proudly report a pH of exactly 6.6. Here are today's values:

t=26.5°C
KH=55 ppm=3.1 dKH
GH=144 ppm=8.1 dGH
pH=6.75
CO[SUB]2[/SUB]=29 ppm
TDS=327 ppm
ORP=202 mV
DO=7.58 ppm
NH[SUB]3/4[/SUB]=0.11 ppm
NO[SUB]2[/SUB]=0.022 ppm
NO[SUB]3[/SUB]=3.9 ppm

After taking the measurements I left the DO and ORP probes in the tank and added tonight's H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] dose. Both values climbed slowly and in half hour or so stabilized around
ORP=270 mV
DO=7.99 ppm

Florin
 

Biollante

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Encouraging!

Hi Florin,

That is encouraging; the rise in pH after the addition of activated charcoal is a positive indication.
:)

It would have been interesting to have an alkalinity titration to pH 4.5 before and after the addition of activated charcoal, to see the corresponding rise of 7-ppm bicarbonate.

The rise in pH I believe is attributable to the sequestration of organic material.

I think it is safe to try 25-ml of 3% H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] three times a day, as close to 8-hours apart as you can.

Biollante
 

Biollante

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Excellent Attitude… Now If You Would Help Get Tug’s Mind Right...

Hi Florin,

If you would refresh my memory on how you are testing KH.
:)

Biollante
 

Biollante

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It Is a Conspiracy, a Conspiracy, I Tell You: CaCO3 for GH & KH

Hi Florin,

Thanks, I think I knew that used LaMotte and probably could have looked it up.
:eek:

I am thinking, which is painful...
:eek-new:

Biollante