Can too much co2 be a bad thing?

Biollante · Feb 1, 2012

Oxygen Is BGA's Mortal Enemy

Left C;78753 said:
Hi B

I think that your problem is not enough O[sub]2[/sub] and N[sub]2[/sub]. Try leaving the CO[sub]2[/sub] alone. Add a good fine misting air stone or wooden one and pump air into your tank. This will still keep your CO[sub]2[/sub] up high, but you will be adding O[sub]2[/sub] and N[sub]2[/sub]. Cyano can fix N[sub]2[/sub] into NH[sub]3[/sub], NO[sub]2[/sub], and NO[sub]3[/sub] for the plants to use. Plants can't use N[sub]2[/sub] gas. In the presence of O[sub]2[/sub], nitrification cannot occur. Hopefully, the cyano should die.

Left C

Hi Left C,

Correct and stated a number of times, but in and of itself not the overriding issue.

The microphotographs are, along with B's testimony, the central point.

B has asked for Tom Barr's answer, so we wait, out of respect for B's wishes....

Biollante

Biollante · Feb 1, 2012

If You Want The Same Result, Keep Doing The Same Thing

bsmith782;78749 said:
I thought we were done with this. Can we please just try and figure out what the root problem is here.

I assume no one else mentioned Erythro as they either have read the multiple threads on other sites about my trials with this specific problem or they read my first post and from this line.

"I have been dealing with cyanobacteria for some time now even after multiple Erythro treatments, copious amounts of manual removal and pretty much everything else short if calling an Arapaho rainmaker in to chant my bacteria problems away."

They didn't feel the need to bring it up.

Hi B,

Does the fact that you have posted in many places and tried many things that didn’t work, that maybe, just maybe what “everyone says” is wrong.

I know all kinds of things get said in all kinds of places, I even see Tom Barr, courageous soul he is, argue and argue, with facts and argue some more and still you can read all kinds of idiocy.

I did a quick Google search and found lots of recommendations by perhaps even well-meaning nitwits recommending, brace yourself, Erythromycin, though if you are willing to look a little closer you also find reasoned statements based on real live research that explain why it is a bad idea. I even provided a link somewhere along the way.

I would rather be right than make you happy by becoming a nitwit or letting you go without hearing the truth, so that if you decide to be a nitwit it is by choice and not default.

The Arapaho rainmaker is a better choice than much of the nonsense I see. The Arapaho rainmaker would at least have enough respect to do no further harm.

By the way, Matt is right the old gasbag thing is self-effacing, though I regard it as a term of endearment, given as it was by a very bright, very decent fellow at a moment when I am sure he wanted to use a string of explicatives. (I seem to have that effect on people.

)

Also my posts with signature are always the perfect length.

Biollante

Tom Barr · Feb 1, 2012

bsmith782;78715 said:
What about the heterocysts is a stretch? That they are there in the Cyano present in my tank or something else?

Once more. I value your and others on this sites opinion and knowledge so please fill me in here. Of course I know plants LOVE ammonia but I was just trying to keep my point as simple as possible. That perhaps the biofilter/activity/barrieris not functioning at a level that that is able to defend the tank again this bacteria, Cyanobacteria.

I'm not dismissive of bacteria, I think there's a lot more to them than folks are willing and honestly, able..to show in aquariums.
Heterocyst are not formed until the BGA is stressing for N. Why would you spend all the energy, resources etc? You'd just keep growing till something limited you.

You might consider a probiotics philosophy to planted tank bioflims as a cure/cause for algae and related directly to plant health status.
Good healthy bacteria naturally defend against many species of algae by sloughing off etc or making the surface too slimy(or whatever) for spores to attach.

Could be.
But....nutrients are still there, I see no good reason to make something to acquire resources when the resources are already there in non limiting ranges.

I think good plant growth is easily able to do this defense.
I've seen BGA flim on the front of the glass, lower below the gravel line in many tanks, but...........it does not grow elsewhere or sneak up into the main tank area.

Tom Barr · Feb 1, 2012

bsmith782;78733 said:
Does Cyano have some other way to fixate/use N in our tanks other than through the heterocysts?

Does not need very much, maybe 20 parts per BILLION, vs a plant, which is actively growing in a CO2 enriched tank? Maybe 10-100X more.
Algae and BGA's really need VERY little, it's like the old analogy: algae are like mice and plants are like Elephants: both are herbivores but the reproduction rates is VERY low for elephants but the growth rate is very large per animal.
Mice breed like flies, but per individual, they get killed and eaten and die easily. The individual also grows only a small amount by weight. It takes far more biomass(and stability) to sustain and small population of elephants than large population of mice.

bsmith782 · Feb 2, 2012

Biollante;78755 said:
Hi,

Apparently, you are mistaken, a situation I gather with which you are not only familiar, but comfortable.

In the view of the person answering the question, should they choose to exploit, there is no irrelevant information.

The person asking may not have the background education or experience to frame the question properly or the discussion that follow. In fact, that is a benefit of asking.

The only “non-relevant” information I have seen in this thread is from, or results from, someone that doesn’t like being challenged and possibly corrected.

If your only question was “Can too much co2 be a bad thing?” all of the information you provided was superfluous, yes of course too much CO2 “could” be a bad thing, I presumed a higher intelligence involved and had enough respect for the poster and proceeded to answer the points raised in the OP as it related to aquarium keeping in general and cyanobacteria in particular.

There is obvious confusion about Gram positive and negative in your OP, this is common and out of respect for the poster (you) and readers, I clarified.

Perhaps you picked up along the way that nitrifying bacteria are Gram negative as are the walls of cyanobacteria. Maybe as an outside chance you learned something about Erythromycin.

Out of respect for the poster and subsequent readers, I included hyperlinks so they might understand why I state facts as facts and to build credibility for what will be the central issue of this thread with or without the thread starters’ permission.

This threads destination was foreordained by the greater conversation that makes up this forum and discussions throughout the aquarium keeping community.

That you possess neither the wit nor wisdom to understand is your problem.

Here is a legitimate chance to learn.

You provided a great setup and wonderful microphotographs that your testimony gives context and all you want to do is whine. The reason I removed my posts with no argument was to try to get out of the way.

As DaBub is not the Sheriff of the internet, neither are you, if you have nothing constructive to add don't.

Biollante

Okay, now I could care less whether you participate in this thread or not because I have tried to clear the air multiple times but apparently your fragile ego just was not satisfied. So now like some poor immature, passive aggressive child you try to portray some sort of intellectual creepy response/s in an other than first person manner to convey what you believe is witty.

It's not, even in the most broad of definitions at all smart. The facts are presenting themselves in an unprecedented (in my time on the webs) mannor,the most apparent and back to your creepy non first person 'im a plant robot' cinematics. I would venture to say that you spend more time selecting the font/script/point personalization to your semi-psychotic retorts than you do talking to the opposite sex or building any real life experience conversing with real people. I'm sure it also gives you done sort of self worth/fulfillment every time you craft one of your stranger than thou online representations of a response.

It was the brain flexing comment that probably put you into a frantic state of unease. It's true. Whether its a member of an openly aggressive car forum or a generally placid and jovial aquarium forum there are people that in their own special way try their hardest to create a persona they cannot/do not posses in reality.

I neve thought I would have to deal with this online phenomena on a planted tank site though but you left me no other option. I apologized and explained myself more times than was necessary and still you posted your emmensly contrived and over thought "flexations" like a 7th grader that got his feelings hurt and when he finally ran into the person who damaged his pride couldn't even look them in the eyes to mumble the earth shattering redemption he had been stewing in his cauldron for what seemed to him as eternity.

Hopefully the air is now completely clear and it's obvious you and your lacky are no longer wanted here, in this thread to take away from the info and help that can be gleaned by more adjusted people.

Good day.

bsmith782 · Feb 2, 2012

Tom Barr;78767 said:
I'm not dismissive of bacteria, I think there's a lot more to them than folks are willing and honestly, able..to show in aquariums.
Heterocyst are not formed until the BGA is stressing for N. Why would you spend all the energy, resources etc? You'd just keep growing till something limited you.

You might consider a probiotics philosophy to planted tank bioflims as a cure/cause for algae and related directly to plant health status.
Good healthy bacteria naturally defend against many species of algae by sloughing off etc or making the surface too slimy(or whatever) for spores to attach.

Could be.
But....nutrients are still there, I see no good reason to make something to acquire resources when the resources are already there in non limiting ranges.

I think good plant growth is easily able to do this defense.
I've seen BGA flim on the front of the glass, lower below the gravel line in many tanks, but...........it does not grow elsewhere or sneak up into the main tank area.

Tom Barr;78768 said:
Does not need very much, maybe 20 parts per BILLION, vs a plant, which is actively growing in a CO2 enriched tank? Maybe 10-100X more.
Algae and BGA's really need VERY little, it's like the old analogy: algae are like mice and plants are like Elephants: both are herbivores but the reproduction rates is VERY low for elephants but the growth rate is very large per animal.
Mice breed like flies, but per individual, they get killed and eaten and die easily. The individual also grows only a small amount by weight. It takes far more biomass(and stability) to sustain and small population of elephants than large population of mice.

I know you are handy with a microscope Tom. How about you let me send you some samples of the cyano that are in different areas of the tank and you can see them and inspect?

In the tank a black/gray cyano has developed in the substrate, roughly .5"-1" below the substrate. I have never seen or heard of this before.

What do you suggest?

jaafaman · Feb 2, 2012

Tom Barr;78767 said:
...I've seen BGA flim on the front of the glass, lower below the gravel line in many tanks, but...........it does not grow elsewhere or sneak up into the main tank area.

I've found this to be particularly true in sand-based substrates.

From the tank I mentioned above...link is posted in lieu of photo as apparently Live's secure server doesn't pass muster with the Forum's filters...

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.asp...E41C021B73932!1030&parid=6EAE41C021B73932!995

bsmith782 · Feb 2, 2012

jaafaman;78774 said:
I've found this to be particularly true in sand-based substrates.

From the tank I mentioned above...link is posted in lieu of photo as apparently Live's secure server doesn't pass muster with the Forum's filters...

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.asp...E41C021B73932!1030&parid=6EAE41C021B73932!995

I have seen that as well. I always thought it was gda and not cyano though.

After I submit this response I'll hop on the lap top and post some pics I'm my tank. There are multiple types of cyano in it.

Matt F. · Feb 2, 2012

That looks like GDA to me.

bsmith782 · Feb 2, 2012

Here are some pics of the actual tank this is happening in. Hopefully it will help a bit.

Matt F. · Feb 2, 2012

That doesn't really look like BGA to me.
Here are two good links w/ pics
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm
http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/

Do you dose excel? Are you using 4dkh in your drop checker? Your plant biomass is on the lower side. Have you tried adding floaters? What kind of light are you running and how long?

bsmith782 · Feb 2, 2012

I know its not your normal blue green blanket but Cyanobacteria comes in many shapes and forms and again, all of the different spots of slightly different looking crud have all been id'd as cyano nder a scope.

I just ran out of Excel and im trying to find someone who wants to trade some for some of the Kens food that I sell in smaller portions than he offers. I like to have it around for those spots of BBA that pop up in higher light tanks if you sneeze!

Yes, I use a lab certified 4dkh solution in my DC and as yo can see in the pic, its about as yellow as it will get.

I just did a trim but I will say that ever since this cyano reared its ugly head my growth has not been what it was with the 3x24w Catalina t5ho I had on the tank prior to the 70w JBJ V2 MH I have suspended above the tank.

Older pic but I have a 1/2" aluminum conduit I cut to length and mounted to the top of the cabinets and am using metal wire I mad loops in to suspend the light.

Matt F. · Feb 2, 2012

Forgot about the fact that you had it checked under a scope. hmmmm

Matt F. · Feb 2, 2012

forgive me if the info is already here, but did the problem start after you changed lights?
Also how is your filter doing?

Here's a though...
Maybe has something to do with higher co2 and lower light levels...like when a bulb is worn out. I'm not sure how much par your putting out with that MH. Plant growth is down, you say. Another thing to look at would be whether or not you have enought flow from you filter. Nothing other than my intuition is guiding me, so don't shoot me down.

I assume you're doing EI. You well over 30ppm CO2. WHat's left? Light and circulation. Doesn't look like you have a large amount of organic build up in that tank.

IDK

Florin Ilia · Feb 2, 2012

B, I'm by no means an expert but I can't help noticing that:
- from the pics, your water seems to be very still, with no surface agitation, no airstone
- low dissolved oxygen has been mentioned a few times in this thread as a possible factor

Have you tried increasing dissolved O[SUB]2[/SUB] a lot? If you haven't ruled it out already maybe you could try an airstone for a week or two, see how the tank reacts.

Tom Barr · Feb 2, 2012

More plants would also increase the O2.

Biollante · Feb 2, 2012

Let Me See What Colors Should I Use Today, So Many Hours Deciding...

Hi B,

Oh and I had my hopes up, but that aquarium appears dominated by three forms of red algae (Rhodophyta). I do see a spot in the middle of photograph #7 in post #50.

My error, I so wanted those microphotographs in post #9 to be cyanobacteria and sulfide based bacteria.

Instead, they are Compsogon (Rhodophyceae), well my bad; my fragile ego is shattered,

the reality I had hoped for is gone.

You finally provided a fact to refute something, thank-you.
Facts work better than whining with evil plant monsters.

Oh well I think enough folks have mentioned more oxygen… More water movement. More plants.

Lack of oxygen, lack of biological filtration in addition to or because of high dissolved organic compounds. Something happened in that tank.

Carbon dioxide is not the problem directly, unless the CO[SUB]2(aq)[/SUB] got up into the range of soda water and held it for a while.[SUP]1[/SUP]

Oh, well to specific cases in addition to increasing aeration that has been suggested repeatedly.

At minimum a couple of more big water changes three days apart, during the water change scrub all the hard scape you can with a toothbrush (be careful not to get caught using your significant-others[SUP]2[/SUP]) and a little 3% Hydrogen peroxide, after cleaning the glass wipe it down with 5:1 Fleet Enemas: water solution.

The good thing about an all plant tank is you can pretty much do a 100% water changes.

A 1.5-2-ppm Potassium permanganate for 4-hour treatment between one of the water changes is a seriously good idea.:encouragement:

Clean but do not over clean you filter(s), it is possible that the Erythromycin killed off or significantly reduced the biological filtration capabilities, if so the tank will cycle.

Either way activated charcoal or Purigen is a good idea.:wink-new:

I think you have an underlying problem and at least in the short term you will find the algae or, one its cousins back.

Something happened, something died in there. Dig around a little bit. If you had a large, plant die and did not get the roots or bulb out. If you planted bulbs and one or more did not grow. Even mass die offs of various worms or little critters you did not know you had could be the reason.

Once upon a times I had the bright idea of “temporarily” tying down some plants with cotton string and twine, I ended up burying it and buggers(!

) I had a heck of an outbreak long after I had forgotten what I had done.:cower:

Biollante
[SUP]1[/SUP]Some while back I did a study or demonstration of soda water as a sanitizing agent or dip for plants, the plants with soda sealed in a plastic bag did well for days. I cannot recall the period but the good bacteria were killed quite quickly. If anyone is interested, I will look it up.
[SUP]2[/SUP]Soimmature, so 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Grade (I did spend 5-years in the 8[SUP]th[/SUP] grade, I wonder).

jaafaman · Feb 2, 2012

Matt F.;78776 said:
That looks like GDA to me.

You can thank the flash on my CoolPix for that. It also did a fine job of bringing out the green that's about to form on the sand which at the time wasn't easily noticeable to the eye.

The tank's been almost three weeks untouched (except for distilled water top-offs) to get to this point - by intention on the third week with the idea to collect a little data. Between the micron filter starting to clog and the huge mass of Wysteria blocking two of the three circulating outlets, the water's considerably calmer than intended and the balance is definitely becoming upset. This tank's only six months old right now, just beginning to settle in, so it's still a bit prone yet when something like this happens. But for comparison, here's a shot taken just before the tank set this way to document where the dominant male was just beginning to display trait

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.asp...E41C021B73932!1028&parid=6EAE41C021B73932!995

GDA often forms right at the substrate line for me, and is hard as all get-out to scrape off without picking up some sand and etching the glass. What's in the shot is characteristically soft, stinky, slimey and easily removed. In fact, I usually just run an ID card down the inside of the glass before taking pictures and it's gone with but a single swipe (well, not actually, of course - just pushed back into the sand out of sight).

As Tom mentioned, it never seems to spread, even as an underlying layer. Nor does it ever provide real cause for concern except for the aesthetics. MTS are good for keeping it broken up and the sand "turned", but I'm hoping to breed the Dichrossus in this tank and never use snails in a breeding tank. Unfortunately, it's not in an area of interest to the OP but the tank may provide a bit of data on its recovery that may highlight some area of interest or further investigation under proper control conditions for the original questions of CO[sub]2[/sub] and the biofilter. It's in the front room, so I may as well do something while I'm sprucing it back up besides "spectate"...

Biollante · Feb 2, 2012

New Tank

Hi,

If it is “sheet-like” as it comes of hard surfaces, it is likely cyanobacteria, the bit between glass and substrate is classic.

Biollante

Tom Barr · Feb 2, 2012

jaafaman;78800 said:
You can thank the flash on my CoolPix for that. It also did a fine job of bringing out the green that's about to form on the sand which at the time wasn't easily noticeable to the eye.

The tank's been almost three weeks untouched (except for distilled water top-offs) to get to this point - by intention on the third week with the idea to collect a little data. Between the micron filter starting to clog and the huge mass of Wysteria blocking two of the three circulating outlets, the water's considerably calmer than intended and the balance is definitely becoming upset. This tank's only six months old right now, just beginning to settle in, so it's still a bit prone yet when something like this happens. But for comparison, here's a shot taken just before the tank set this way to document where the dominant male was just beginning to display trait

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.asp...E41C021B73932!1028&parid=6EAE41C021B73932!995

GDA often forms right at the substrate line for me, and is hard as all get-out to scrape off without picking up some sand and etching the glass. What's in the shot is characteristically soft, stinky, slimey and easily removed. In fact, I usually just run an ID card down the inside of the glass before taking pictures and it's gone with but a single swipe (well, not actually, of course - just pushed back into the sand out of sight).

As Tom mentioned, it never seems to spread, even as an underlying layer. Nor does it ever provide real cause for concern except for the aesthetics. MTS are good for keeping it broken up and the sand "turned", but I'm hoping to breed the Dichrossus in this tank and never use snails in a breeding tank. Unfortunately, it's not in an area of interest to the OP but the tank may provide a bit of data on its recovery that may highlight some area of interest or further investigation under proper control conditions for the original questions of CO[sub]2[/sub] and the biofilter. It's in the front room, so I may as well do something while I'm sprucing it back up besides "spectate"...

Always clean top down, never side to side or up and down.
So a nice clean wipe down, then pull off the glass, then go back up.

I clean the top 90% and then do the top down method for the last bit before the gravel line.

This keeps the tank pretty and prevents most scratches.

The other VERY simple trick, gravel vac that front edge, pull the sand out entirely if you wish, then siphon it and redistributed it maybe 4-6" back and the sand will creep in 1-2 weeks back.

ADA As is soft clay, but snail shells and other stuff can get stuck in the pad(so clean them often, flip sides etc), still, it prevents a lot of scratches over time.
MTS, power sand etc cannot make this claim since they have hard gravel cap or a hard bottom.

This is an overlooked argument in the longer term rational why I suggest ADA As a lone vs MTS and sand caps or powersand.

Can too much co2 be a bad thing?

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