Foaming on water surface

Nothing to worry about.

Explanation: I don't think it's the fert, i believe it's just junk from the air or oil from the human skin (from when you're maintain the tank) settling on the water surface creating a cap, kinda like oil on water.It doesn't dissolve and separates into top/bottom layers. It traps O2 and C02 and forming a frogspawn type of thingie. Not really beneficial or harmful for a plant only aquarium, but if you have live-stock, it could cause o2 deficiency. Because it cuts off the contact between fresh O2 and water.

Solution: Usually i just use a cup and scoop out the top layer of the water, and top-off the water that i took out, OR you can increase surface agitation this will keep the water from foaming, and keep water-air circulation uninterrupted.

edit

After a closer look at your picture, i think you have enough agitation, so just scoop out the top layer of water.

High phosphate, nitrogenous waste? What's your WC routine, vacuuming substrate?

That doesn't look like the usual 'film' on the water surface. Looks like My tank does.

One thing you have that I often have is a decent ripple. I get that froth around the edges at night when the water evaporation causes the lip of the Lily to be at the water surface.

No harm to anything though and I like to keep the ripple. Looks similar to the froth you sometimes see at the beach. However with the beach the tide is moving so it disappears. With our tanks it stays because in general the water line doesn't move down too far.

If it ain't harmless I'll be interested to know

Andy

Pond Scum!


Hi,

It is generally organic material, best guess is that it is a fairly young tank or some large sudden increase in organic material.

Most likely form of biofilm produced from the organic material to allow the colonization by various bacteria, “pond scum,” folks with marine aquariums use fractionating skimmers to get rid of it, the ocean uses wave and tidal action to break it up.



Freshwater at a lower specific gravity usually will not hold it as well, the reason power skimmers are not particularly helpful in freshwater tanks.


Generally harmless, remove it as Pailines suggests.



Activated charcoal will reduce the organic material, as will large water changes.



Biollante

May Be Time For Smar Folk To Step In


Hi Jim,

My suspicion is that the replanting triggered something.


In an otherwise healthy tank a little biofilm is no big deal at all. The high agitation likely concentrates the biofilm causing protein froth, a bit like beating egg whites… Uh-oh, a thought... Terrible pain...


{Short delay}


Just tried something with some biofilms I culture… Nothing close to your photograph or my idea of the egg white analogy…



{Sorry for the delay, just couldn’t resist…}


{Turned into 4 hours or so… Apologies.}[SUP]*[/SUP]


Turns out a milliliter of egg white in 250 milliliters of distilled egg white when shaken yields a bit of foam and some crap[SUP]**[/SUP], but really doesn’t look the way I expected.
I tried various amounts of egg whites in distilled water and it never came out like your photograph.[SUP]***[/SUP]


I tried varying amounts of egg white in water taken from various tanks. :gw


I found a combination from a tank I raise snails and some other live food matched your photograph best and noticeably less crap[SUP]**[/SUP]. I then mixed 8-milliliters (~1.5 teaspoon) of egg whites into the 20-gallon tank added a two air stones and pretty quickly had the foam piling up along one side of the tank.

I grabbed a Magnum 350 canister filter I had lying about, filled the thingy with activated charcoal, fitted a sponge filter over the intake and within minutes the foam was gone. Of course me being, well me, I had to do this several times. I also found I could not induce foaming with the filter running.


I am certainly going to do some more messing about with the foam.


Tentatively I think, I was wrong about the biofilm, it hasn’t really had a chance, apologies to pond scum everywhere.

1. You are running your tank right at the edge of its capabilities, bio-load wise[SUP].****[/SUP]
2. Your rescape triggered a biological event
   
3. Your dissolved organic compounds are very high
   
4. The “biological event” either released organic matter or more likely (in my ever-humble-potted-plant opinion) disrupted the little critters consuming the organic matter.
   
5. The dissolved organic matter is protein heavy (I do not understand this; I will have to do more research).

I think your 70% water changes every fifth day is “just” keeping up. I recommend perhaps every third day. Alternatively add activated charcoal, Purigen or Chempure to your filter for a while.


Biollante
[SUP]*[/SUP]Nothing in this post should be considered scientific or anything but the incoherent ramblings of a ridiculous old potted-plant.
[SUP]**[/SUP]Technical term, in this case, unincorporated egg white.
[SUP]***[/SUP]In no way am I suggesting that observation has any place in problem solving or science.
[SUP]****[/SUP]No criticism from me, I do the same thing

If Only I Had A Brain


Hi Jim,

Okay (referring to post #5) I have been having my potted-plant-butt kicked all day. People can be so unkind...


The obvious part is of course, the surprise I had that the foam was protein based; I even mentioned the skimmer that is used in marine aquaria, even called it a “fractionating” skimmer, which it is, but the common descriptive name is “protein” skimmer. It isn’t “biofilm” skimmer or “pond scum” skimmer.



I have learned life is hard when you are stupid. Lacking opposable thumbs is no day in the park either.



I think I have figured out some relationships, so should anyone wish a paludarium with white caps I know how.


Though it is directly related to dissolved organic compounds that are hard to test (accurately) for the hobbyist, I think I can relate it to ORP values, which are basically verboten here, so I may post elsewhere. I think it is rather interesting, and then lacking a coherent nervous system I am often easily amused.

[video=youtube;8RjXY_-PUbo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RjXY_-PUbo&feature=player_embedded[/video]


Biollante

Biollante can you explain more your theory about ORP. I have a similar foam as well with no change to my tank in a long time.

John

I get a film that starts as a thin oily layer then slowly gets thicker if I pay it no attention. If I let it get thick before fiddling with it an airstone will break it into little while particles and it will disappear for a few hours after the stone is removed. The oily surface will return slowly throughout the day.

If it doesn't get to the thicker stage before treating it the airstone will produce foam which will collect at the glass. The bubbles produced by the airstone will get as large as 2" across floating on the surface just above the the stone before they break. Most are much smaller of course.

I'm fiddling around building a little skimmer (not as little as I like...) with a little Eheim powerhead and a plastic container to see if in-tank recycling of the surface might keep the layer at bay.

Although the airstone works to dissipate the layer for gas exchange purposes (and esthetics) the foam is undesireable and the stone and bubbles are ugly. Feels like a return to a little plastic deepsea diver...

I'm gettting rid of a few fish tomorrow at the club meeting (hurricane permitting) since I think I may just have too much of a bioload in the tank. I'm also picking up some shrimp to add to the cleaning crew.

Fish seem to be happy but this is just annoying.

Jim

Skimmers & ORP & Proteins & Lipids & Starch... Gobsmacked I Am


Hi Jim, John, All,

I will post some of my results here, I have been messing about and studying up, and thankfully tomorrow I should have a couple of smart folk to help me sort through this.


I will say this has been a bit of an eye opener, it is definitely not as I had assumed.


I seem to have gotten it right for one set of circumstances, kind of getting what passes for my mind around the different forms organic materials take in our aquariums.


The thin oily layer is generally a biofilm, I have spent some time growing various biofilms, part of the reason I initially jumped at the biofilms as “the” answer.


I have spent a bit of time measuring the dissolved organic material in various tanks and trying to calculate the percentages of carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins… I am a little frustrated at the moment.



I think I have the model, I am just such a klutz trying to confirm what I think is happening.


I think surface skimmers are a good idea; I really like the “coast-to-coast skimmers.”



My avatar photo posted below shows the top a do-it-yourself constructed using a Freddy's Frozen Custard & Steakburgers drink cup. Of course it was only the drink cup that led me to Freddy’s… Now they have crappy cups not at all suited to the purpose, or, well, so I have been told.


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-a0WRzJmVsFc/S-Jd7Oyz84I/AAAAAAAAAgA/aMdY1-J4src/s800/SufaceAgitationILikep1010014160x160.jpg


It seems I am not allowed to post pictures, so that is the link.

Biollante

now you have me more curious...

That paludarium and that freddy cup skimmer are what I want to do on my 180. It is still in the garage until I get that figured out, because its going to replace the 125. My 180 has no weirs (overflows). It has 6 holes drilled down the middle of the tank (as pairs) as it was used for a closed loop and standpipe (hidden by live rock). I would like to know how you plumbed that up and get no noise.

I'm also very curious of your foam findings.

John

Freddy's Surface Skimmer With Fries


Hi John,

My Freddy’s surface skimmer is just a variation on a very basic do-it-yourself version.[SUP]1, 2[/SUP]



In trying these surface skimmer designs, the tradeoff is efficiency for noise, the easier and straight forward the noisier. Under just about any circumstance the box type, properly sized is better, by oversizing them (giving up tank space) and inclining the walls or using (the proper term eludes me) braided rope material down the inside slows and even the flow and adds bio filtration.



Generally

• thin plastic is better than thick.
• Allow as large an intake area, in this case circumference of the cup, so upsize that order!
  
• Incline (in this case provided by the cup) to keep water contact with the side.
  
• The tradeoff here is less robust oxygenation, I suppose less foam fractionation.
  
• Ultimately I attached a thin plastic container that had a circumference just smaller than the top of the cup to a piece of slate for stability.
  
• Range of motion up and down by the cup (not absolutely necessary) I glued a cork band around the cup and two beads of silicone on the inside of the plastic container

It turned out I had some cleaver fish that thought I had provided an amusement park ride so I ended up using a course foam filter on the intake. Then the fish would just get in the cup and wait for the ride to reopen, so I had to give up the spiffy Freddy’s cup top in favor of some small mesh plastic hardware cloth, it blends in better and is more efficient, but is less, well, me.


Biollante
[SUP]1[/SUP]some seem to think I am cheap (spouse, family, friends, employees, business associates, pretty much anyone I have ever met), I am not sure why.
[SUP]2[/SUP]I try just about every diy thing, actually about everything I see to figure out if I can 1) make it 2) make it better, 3) cheaper (preference given to any “found” items), 4) quicker.

Do you have a pic? The one you posted left me scratching my head as to where the skimmer was, what it looked like, how it functioned.

Thanks

Jim

Tdc


Hi Jim(s),

I cannot locate my photos of the build and comparisons; I think I may also have video.

The Fancy Freddy’s Surface Skimmer is top center of the photo, here I have it highlighted.
Still not allowed to post images.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...144/SufaceAgitationILikep1010014160x160-1.jpg

Well that isn't very good, lets try this

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...800/SufaceAgitationILikep1010014160x160-2.jpg


Biollante

Egg Whites Can Amuse Me for Days on End


Hi Jim,


I have been messing about for week now with this and I think your experiment rather confirms what I think is going on.:gw


You seem to have a very high level of dissolved organic material, heavily protein, with a good shot of carbohydrates; your water can be crystal clear this material is smaller than two microns.


Foam appears to be a rather accurate indicator of protein versus starch or lipids test.


The fact that you can “thin” or dilute the solution is a pretty good indicator the “saturation point” (not really the term I am looking for but, well, senior moments happen). Your water is probably slightly acidic my guess is the ORP value is around 280-300-mV.



I have looked at dozens of combinations and I am sending some samples off for proper testing, it is rather interesting what egg whites can tell about water quality.


If you have common snails you are likely seeing a dramatic increase in their population.


As a practical matter my guess is that you are running a very high bio-load, your system is just keeping up. You are on the edge and any upset could really send your system into a tail spin, actually I usually characterize it as a cascade.

• [*=1]If this is a result of recent increase in livestock than the system may just be catching up. [*=1]For the time being I would advise reducing feeding, particularly live and/or meaty foods.
  [*=1]Start using activated charcoal or if you are already changing it more frequently and increasing the amounts. [*=1]If you have it using or continuing the use of a UV-sterilizer.

This can also result from clogged filters or paradoxically, filters that have been cleaned too well, though this is more likely to result in a bacterial bloom.


Then there is Potassium permanganate, a really good way to rid yourself of those nasty dissolved organic compounds.

****************************************************************

Without regard to the official silliness regarding ORP on this forum, ORP values are a wonderful way of describing water quality used everywhere except apparently in wetlands of California. Yes ORP is a marvelous way to look at sediments and substrates, though apparently if you are not Claus with Tropica no discussion of substrates counts.


I like ORP values for the practical simplicity, I am aware that Redox is a ridiculously complex bit of science.

As a practical matter John Tullock's definition of Redox from The Reef Tank Owner's Manual, “a measure of the ability of a system to eliminate wastes" is adequate.

• Yeah, yeah, yada, yada, yada, and okay it is really complicated and that definition isn’t scientific but as practical matter in our container gardens it works.

Two basic articles I like, Bob Fenner of Contentious Marine Aquarist fame’s “Redox,” http://www.wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm and ORP and the Reef Aquarium, by Randy Holmes-Farley, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php obviously these articles are geared for the saltwater crowd.

An ORP overview for the unafraid.

• ORP is “Oxidation-Reduction Potential,” the potential thing often gets lost in these discussions.
• This is also known as “Redox Potential,” for Reduction-Oxidation Potential.
• A helpful mnemonic is “OILRIG,” Oxidation Is Losing Reduction Is Gaining, electrons.
• ORP values are indirect measurements of Redox, expressed in volts, actually millivolts (mV).
  
• The ORP scale like the pH scale is logarithmic.
• ORP values provide a convenient method of accurately reporting water quality.

In our closed systems ORP provides an easy reference for the health of our systems.


Biollante

Fascinating In A Sick Degenerate Sort Of Way


Hi Jim,

Well I am about 3 weeks in to this and I have more questions than answers…


I think I have narrowed the possible range of your water to an ORP value of 290-mV or so. Increasing the water will raise the ORP value for a time, but within a week or so, assuming no changes, it will revert to 290-mV.


Actually not a bad range as long as you have strong filtration, like snails and other little critters, and are not keeping particularly sensitive critters.


With a skimmer not much will develop, should you lose the skimmer, the polymer film will tend to coalesce, clear and develop a strong environment for microbial life. Becoming a true biofilm, likely (depending on species) you will see snails hanging upside down and grazing, while it may be a bit startling and some may think unsightly, it is your systems response to an overabundance of dissolved organic material.


The principle downside of losing the skimming dissolved oxygen content will reduce, perhaps drastically, particularly as the biological processes continue to assimilate the organic products.


Assuming reasonable levels of dissolved oxygen are maintained, the surface scum and film will likely be gone or significantly reduced in three or four weeks and your tank will have adapted to that level, to whatever regimen you have in place that developed this condition. (Accounted for the inputs.)


There is nothing inherently wrong with your system, as long as you are aware that you are pushing your systems limits and have very little system reserves.


If this is annoying or of no particular, interest let me know.

I will continue this line of inquiry, I find it strangely, oddly, fascinating.

• Then again many comment that while not fascinating, I am strangely odd.

Biollante