Non CO2 methods

behhl

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Mooner;24934 said:
I'm able to go long periods without water changes. This tank is very stable and plants grow slow. Near zero maintenance.:cool:


What observations would prompt you to do a (large?) water change? I mean as different from just toping up the evaporation water?
 

Mooner

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Large water changes 25%-50% have only been needed in the following situations

  • any problem algae issues, build up on glass
  • uprooting, replanting
  • reset the tank if ferts are off, ie build up

This 20 gal is the fist planted tank I learned on. It is near 2 years old and the last two water changes have been about 6 months apart. Most recent water change was 12/8/07 and haven't cleaned the glass since then. It runs great and have no immediate plans to change water.

The tank is a little dark due to the water sprite tree in the middle. Just left of center in a softball sized lava rock hollowed out with a blanket of Java moss growing over it. Just one example of Tom's non-carbon technique.

BL2001a.gif
 

behhl

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Mooner;24939 said:
Large water changes 25%-50% have only been needed in the following situations

  • any problem algae issues, build up on glass
  • uprooting, replanting
  • reset the tank if ferts are off, ie build up


Looks great!

Thanks for the explanation and excuse if I am asking an apparently obtuse question, being new to planted tanks in general (coming from bare bottom simple fish tanks) - can I ask when you say 'ferts are off, ie build up', do you 'know' that by observation of plant growth, fauna behaviour or just as a regular schedule say every 6 months or so?
 

Tom Barr

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Mooner, if you and most folks keeping non CO2 tanks might try, do some scaping, you have a decent foreground and just need some background plants to make a nice layout, then move the water sprite to the back, Hygro difformis is easy, java fern, some driftwood etc, taller Crypts etc.

A clean front edge also makes the tanks look better.
You can run activated carbon for a couple of days to remove any yellow in the water then take the pic.

Part of the deal with the non CO2 method is really about less work, so fewer folks will scape with the method.

But.........it's not a reflection on the method itself.
You can still scape etc, it just takes longer.
But once the scape is established, then it last a lot longer as well.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Mooner

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Tom, thanks for the reply!

It's ironic that you would suggest aquascaping. I'm on the fence between weed grower and beginner aquascaper. I'm still reveling in the fact that I can grow plants:) But, I am finding myself reading more about trimming, placement, and rock/wood. I see moving in the direction soon, especially in the CO2 tanks. My problem is I draw a better square than a circle, not very artistic:rolleyes:

Again, thanks for the guidance;)
 

Mooner

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behhl;24942 said:
can I ask when you say 'ferts are off, ie build up', do you 'know' that by observation of plant growth, fauna behaviour or just as a regular schedule say every 6 months or so?

This I should have made more clear, sorry. Not really a build up but what might be missing or what might be in excess.

I used to chase test kit readings and make quick changes. This did not bode well and the tank just wasn't stable(algae). So I shelfed the test kits and started paying closer attention to the plants and fish. Some things I observed just didn't match what the tests were showing. I slowly made changes("slow"hard to learn!) and continued to observe. Starting at the suggested dosing of this article and tweaking it a bit and with observation I have arrived at this point.

Remember that everyones water is a bit different and what works for one may not work completely for another. That is why observation is a powerful tool. I still goof up once in a while but it is another notch on the learning curve. I can say for myself that the basic knowledge I gained on this tank has paid off big when I moved into Excell tanks and then on to CO2.

My advise, spend some time observing, make changes slowly, be willing to make a change when you see something is needed and record the results for the future. Also read, read, read all you can. The answers needed for success are here on this forum.
 

behhl

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Mooner;24946 said:
My advise, spend some time observing, make changes slowly, be willing to make a change when you see something is needed and record the results for the future. Also read, read, read all you can. The answers needed for success are here on this forum.

Thanks Mooner. Much appreciated for the explanations of your personal experience!
 

JoshP

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Tom, curious as to how you go about measuring 1/8 or even 1/32 teaspoon, the dose sizes you recommend. Thanks
 

Tom Barr

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They sell such teaspoons, Wal Mart etc, you can also do the divide method, take a volume of 1/4, divide it by 2, 4 etc.

Your eye is good at 1/2's, not 1/3rds.

Then you have a close approximation.

However, it's generally best to use liquids and make a stock solution if you have tanks 20 gal or less. If your dosing is off 2X with PO4, no big deal, NO3, you likely will want more control. Since we add less PO4 in general, those low ranges really affect PO4 mostly, not NO3.

As long as you have 0.5 to 3.0 ppm or so, you are fine. If you have 5ppm, that's fine etc. Just be consistent in dosing.

Liquids or powders.
Overall, for the non CO2 method, liquids are a better option since you need less.
But you also have much much larger wiggle room.
You do not need the precision you might want with a high industrial growth system that adds CO2:cool:

So do not fall for the BS some will try and argue, the non CO2 system is much different and the response times and intensity of limitations is far less.

Nothing wrong with more precision, I just saying it is not required.
Wait a week or two longer(skip a week or two of dosing) to remove what's there if you over dose, feed the fish a bit more if you under dose etc.

The main reason is to just prevent strong limitations that will cause some species to not do well ands to relieve any plant=plant competitions(just like in natural system that don't have enriched CO2).

Plant - plant competition does occur in non CO2. I think folks do not see or realize it. We see it a lot in natural systems and it helps to explain their Ecology.

It can also occur in CO2 enriched systems as well.........some plants are very aggressive growers and will mop up all the CO2 or be able to start removing it much faster than another species.

In such tanks, you see some plants doing great, but a few not doing well over time. Adding say some more PO4, often relieves the issue, or more CO2 etc.
As biomass increases, this can occur more rapidly.



Regards,
Tom Barr
 

Neal

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Mooner;24934 said:
It's not the watts per gallon that is a concern, it is the type of lighting. T5 and AH PC's with reflectors put out a lot of light. Generally, you are looking for T12 to T8 lighting over non carbon setups. Your current lighting would do well over an Excel type setup but would still require water changes, maybe bi monthly.

Here is where my inherent laziness is helping out. The glass cover on the tank is very water spotted and the bulbs are at least 5 years old. Those 2 factors must be dimming the light enough that the plants are growing quite well and algae is minimal. In fact the only algae is some green spot on the anubias' leaves and some on the glass. And the algae on the glass is slowly being eliminated by a horde of snails. I had been going to get some clown plecos to help with the algae and general clean up, but if I do now I'll need to feed them.

I've had enough success with this technique that I'm tempted to try it on my 150 gallon pond. How do you calculate the watts per gallon for a pond that is outside in the shade of a tree? ;) I wonder if adding some equilibrium and phosphate would be good for the plants in the pond. I think less nitrate would be needed as there is enough debris in the form of leaves and plant matter to provide some of that.

What do you think? Would a form of this technique work in a pond?
 

Neal

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Mooner;24934 said:
It's not the watts per gallon that is a concern, it is the type of lighting. T5 and AH PC's with reflectors put out a lot of light. Generally, you are looking for T12 to T8 lighting over non carbon setups. Your current lighting would do well over an Excel type setup but would still require water changes, maybe bi monthly.

Here is where my inherent laziness is helping out. The glass cover on the tank is very water spotted and the bulbs are at least 5 years old. Those 2 factors must be dimming the light enough that the plants are growing quite well and algae is minimal. In fact the only algae is some green spot on the anubias' leaves and some on the glass. And the algae on the glass is slowly being eliminated by a horde of snails. I had been going to get some clown plecos to help with the algae and general clean up, but if I do now I'll need to feed them.

I've had enough success with this technique that I'm tempted to try it on my 150 gallon pond. How do you calculate the watts per gallon for a pond that is outside in the shade of a tree? ;) I wonder if adding some equilibrium and phosphate would be good for the plants in the pond. I think less nitrate would be needed as there is enough debris in the form of leaves and plant matter to provide some of that.

What do you think? Would a form of this technique work in a pond?
 

PhillyB

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Non-CO2 w/ PC Lighting

All,

I would like to convert my 20 gallon from excel to non-CO2. It is a 20 gallon tall. I have a Coralife Power Compact Lighting Fixture. It is rated at 36 watts. I have it raised 6 inches above the water.

Does this sound like a reasonable amount of light for this task?

The plants have done well so far. They do begin to grow towards the front of the tank as they get taller though. All weeds. Bacopa, Hygro, Ludwigia, and some hairgrass.

Thanks for the input!

Also, I can not find a place to purchase Leonardite in Philadelphia, PA. I have tried the major chains and a few nurseries. Any ideas? Hydroponics stores? Finally found a place. Hydroponics store in Bristol PA. They used to be called Harvest Moon. 212 Bristol Pike Bristol, Pennsylvania 19007
 

Mr Fishies

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First post here at TBR...Hi Everyone.

For some time now, I've been on the site reading this thread with a lot of interest as I have been running a soil substrate (El Natural, NPT or whatever you'd like to call it) tank for several years and the low maintenance and lack of water changes are exactly what I am looking for. However, as pointed out, it can be very messy when you want to change things around and uproot.

I decided to sign up and ask a few questions as I am in the process of building a new 75G tank and I really think this may be the way I go with that tank.

I live near Toronto Canada and I am having a hard time tracking down DB (leonardite), made contact with the MFR and it seems it's discontinued. Can anyone make any alternate product recomendations? I have found a couple products that seem similar to my uninitated eye: Humalite Mini Granule & Soil Mender Humate. Any thoughts or experience with these 2 products?

I know from reading earlier posts in this thread that peat will work too, but it seems it would be not much better than soil in terms of mess - can someone confirm this?

Last question, maybe since we're not trying to keep soil aerobic underneath gravel it's not as important, but I don't see any specific reccomendations in terms of substrate depth. This is an important point for me as even 2" of Eco Complete in a 75G aquarium is a significant purchase. Is that enough over top of say 1/2" leonardite (or 1" peat if I can't source leonardite)?
 

VaughnH

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I suggest forgetting about the Diamond Black. I had some problems with it leaching brown water into the tank. Just use mineralized natural soil, preferably a soil with some clay in it.

If I were doing a tank as big as 75 gallons I would be reluctant to use a layered substrate of any kind. Once you layer the substrate it is very hard to reuse that substrate later on if you need to do some major changes where removing the substrate is desirable. The amount of substrate in a 75 gallon tank can be expensive to replace when that happens. Layered substrates are not essential for good plant growth.
 

Mooner

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Mr Fishies;26297 said:
I live near Toronto Canada and I am having a hard time tracking down DB (leonardite), made contact with the MFR and it seems it's discontinued. Can anyone make any alternate product recomendations? I have found a couple products that seem similar to my uninitated eye: Humalite Mini Granule & Soil Mender Humate. Any thoughts or experience with these 2 products?

I found a similar product at the local garden center called Soil Activator/Ground conditioner. A quick look on the back label stated " derived from Leonardite" I bought a bag and it's been in a non-carbon tank for 2-3 years. Then put some in a CO2 tank with Eco-Complete about a year ago. both are doing fine. I agree with Vaughn about the layering of substrates, they can be a mess if disturbed. The older tank has a light colored gravel and if I attempt to move anything, the Leonardite will surface. But in the Eco-Complete tank the colors are close so I move plant as needed. You will get tannins in the water from Leonardite, but if left undisturbed its almost goes away.

Mr Fishies;26297 said:
I know from reading earlier posts in this thread that peat will work too, but it seems it would be not much better than soil in terms of mess - can someone confirm this?

Most will agree that a light dusting of peat in any new tank is OK. Mulm should also be added(I've done both). The point is a bacteria culture(mulm) and some decomposition(peat) for the bacterial to feed upon initially.

Mr Fishies;26297 said:
Last question, maybe since we're not trying to keep soil aerobic underneath gravel it's not as important, but I don't see any specific reccomendations in terms of substrate depth. This is an important point for me as even 2" of Eco Complete in a 75G aquarium is a significant purchase. Is that enough over top of say 1/2" Leonardite (or 1" peat if I can't source Leonardite)?

Don't use that much peat:eek: A light dusting is all that is needed. You also don't want to over do the Leonardite either, a 1/2" or so would be fine.
Substrates vary in thickness from 1" to 4", maybe more. Depends on what type of plants you will have and hardscapes you may want to make. For instance, some Crypts would need more than 1" where stem plant would do fine.
Eco-Complete and Flourite are inert and can nearly last forever. So the initial investment will last a long time. IMO it's money well spent.

Good Luck
 

Mr Fishies

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Thanks for the quick replies/advice - as you may have expected though, it spawned a few new questions... :eek:

VaughnH;26299 said:
I suggest forgetting about the Diamond Black. I had some problems with it leaching brown water into the tank. Just use mineralized natural soil, preferably a soil with some clay in it.

That sounds easy enough - I'm quite comfortable with the soil under gravel method. I assume you mean something like AaronT's "recipe" on APC? If so, I guess something a little more concentrated and refined in a thinner layer might help keep muck down come uprooting time? Doesn't really get me away from the soil mess in the end I guess...

Mooner;26305 said:
Don't use that much peat:eek: A light dusting is all that is needed. You also don't want to over do the Leonardite either, a 1/2" or so would be fine.
Substrates vary in thickness from 1" to 4", maybe more. Depends on what type of plants you will have and hardscapes you may want to make. For instance, some Crypts would need more than 1" where stem plant would do fine.
Eco-Complete and Flourite are inert and can nearly last forever. So the initial investment will last a long time. IMO it's money well spent.

Good Luck

I'm a bit confused, it sounded like Tom was recommending a thick layer of peat in this post - did I misunderstand?

In terms of substrate depth, my tank will be heavy on crypts and other non-stem plants, I'm currently running about 2-1/2" including the soil and crypts are booming - so a thinner layer should be OK (saves a bag or 2 of Eco as well!).

Sorry if this is a dumb question - but one last bit of confusion, if as you indicated, Eco and Fluorite are inert, there would be no advatage to them over regular gravel. The Caribsea description mentions "...iron, calcium...25 other elements..." if Eco was inert as I understand the word, it wouldn't provide anything to the plants would it?
 

Mooner

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Mr Fishies;26321 said:
That sounds easy enough - I'm quite comfortable with the soil under gravel method. I assume you mean something like AaronT's "recipe" on APC? If so, I guess something a little more concentrated and refined in a thinner layer might help keep muck down come uprooting time? Doesn't really get me away from the soil mess in the end I guess...?

I've done the soil, dirt cube, clay pots, peat, Leonardite thing(s) All work OK. But you can get the same mileage out of EC, FL, ect... without the mess. Just my personal experience. I haven't tried ADA AS, but have some when ready.


Mr Fishies;26321 said:
I'm a bit confused, it sounded like Tom was recommending a thick layer of peat in this post - did I misunderstand?

In terms of substrate depth, my tank will be heavy on crypts and other non-stem plants, I'm currently running about 2-1/2" including the soil and crypts are booming - so a thinner layer should be OK (saves a bag or 2 of Eco as well!).

I personally would not put soil under EC. When the soil is exhausted, you will never get the EC separated from the soil when it's time to recharge. I would save up for 3"-4" of EC to use in your tank and omit the soil. It will be worth the wait.

Mr Fishies;26321 said:
Sorry if this is a dumb question - but one last bit of confusion, if as you indicated, Eco and Fluorite are inert, there would be no advatage to them over regular gravel. The Caribsea description mentions "...iron, calcium...25 other elements..." if Eco was inert as I understand the word, it wouldn't provide anything to the plants would it?

Good question!

The difference between quartz/plain gravel and Eco-Complete/Fluorite is the porosity or the CEC (cation exchange capacity). EC and FL have more area for bacterial to colonize, and nutrient retention which can then be released back to the plant roots. This is a very generic definition, someone may like to elaborate. IMO EC and FL are good products and they outperform plain gravel. I use all three and see a difference.
 

aquabillpers

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Mooner;26322 said:
Good question!

The difference between quartz/plain gravel and Eco-Complete/Fluorite is the porosity or the CEC (cation exchange capacity). EC and FL have more area for bacterial to colonize, and nutrient retention which can then be released back to the plant roots. This is a very generic definition, someone may like to elaborate. IMO EC and FL are good products and they outperform plain gravel. I use all three and see a difference.

I think one would get the same or better results by using low-nutrient topsoil under inert quartz gravel, at a much lower cost.

Bill
 

Mooner

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aquabillpers;26324 said:
I think one would get the same or better results by using low-nutrient topsoil under inert quartz gravel, at a much lower cost.

Hi Bill,

Yes I agree that initially the cost will be less. Looking long term, I believe the investment is worth it. I've have both these type systems running and (I) much prefer the single component substrate vs. additives that deplete and need replacing. I'm not saying that this is the only way to go, and you have shown another good way. Just putting options out there:)
 

PhillyB

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Leonardite and Yellow Water

All,

Recently setup a 20 gallon non-CO2 tank. The tank has been setup for 4 weeks now and has been showing 0 ppm Ammonia for 1 week after cycling. I have been doing water changes often due to yellow water. I know that with a non-CO2 tank we are not supposed to change the water in order to maintain a consistent CO2 level; however this is the only way I have been able to keep the water clear.

I have 36 Watts of PC lighting.
3/4" of leonardite capped by 2" of Onyx Sand.
Plenty of plants.

Is the yellow water due to algae outbreaks, or is the leonardite causing the discoloration?

Should I continue to do water changes, or do I need to stop these immediately? Any other suggestions to keep the water clear? I have a HOB filter rater for 60 gallons running in the tank. It has plenty of carbon and zeolite for filtration.

Plants looks quite healthy. Some algae on lower leaves that is easily rubbed off.

Thanks,
John