Rotala Kill Tank

Greggz

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Vin I love reading this journal. I find all the detailed information fascinating, and it provides an enormous amount of food for thought.

But I do have a general question for you.

In my own tank, I have mixed success with different species. Right now Rotala Mac V, Lud. Cuba, Pantanal, Pogo Kimberly, Mermaid Weed, Rotala Blood Red, etc all doing great (well, for me anyway). However, always have had problems with some species, like AR Mini & Var., and even S. Repens. Even an easy grower for many like Lud. Sp. Red does OK, but doesn't really thrive. It never makes sense to me.

So the question is this. Given all your experience, do you think chasing the right set of parameters for one set of plants can negatively affect others that are doing well? That is, can you be all things to all plants, or better to stick plants that like the stew you are providing? I guess in general what is your attitude with your Dutch tank?

I’ve kind of been leaning toward just sticking with the varieties that do well, and to heck with the others. Don’t know if it’s worth it to bang my head against the wall just to please a few. Or am I just giving up too easy and there is an elusive combination that leads to nirvana? Just curious as to your thoughts?
 
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Pikez

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If you stunt Rotala and Pogostemon, I am willing to bet money that you have issues with:
  • Ammannia: YES YES YES
  • Cuphea: yes
  • Alternanthera reineckii Mini and/or Variegated: yes
  • Proserpinaca: very minor problems. main problem was melting of the stems: they became black and melted
  • Hottonia: never tried
  • Eriocaulon setaceum: never tried
  • Elatine triandra.: No, it grew great

The Lythraceae do not melt unless really unhappy.

Proserpinaca, Hottonia, Elatine, Ludwigia Red, get stem melt.
Eichhornia turn black.
Persicaria, Alternanthera get wavy spiraled leaves.
Pogostemon stunt and get stem melt.
Hygrophile and Staurogyne get pinholes and shed older leaves.

Each of these plants exhibit these symptoms for various insults. Figuring out what causes them is not so easy.
 

Pikez

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...I do have a general question for you.

In my own tank, I have mixed success with different species. Right now Rotala Mac V, Lud. Cuba, Pantanal, Pogo Kimberly, Mermaid Weed, Rotala Blood Red, etc all doing great (well, for me anyway). However, always have had problems with some species, like AR Mini & Var., and even S. Repens. Even an easy grower for many like Lud. Sp. Red does OK, but doesn't really thrive. It never makes sense to me.

So the question is this. Given all your experience, do you think chasing the right set of parameters for one set of plants can negatively affect others that are doing well? That is, can you be all things to all plants, or better to stick plants that like the stew you are providing? I guess in general what is your attitude with your Dutch tank?

I’ve kind of been leaning toward just sticking with the varieties that do well, and to heck with the others. Don’t know if it’s worth it to bang my head against the wall just to please a few. Or am I just giving up too easy and there is an elusive combination that leads to nirvana? Just curious as to your thoughts?

I think if you go with your tap water, you may be limited to what you can grow well. The combination of tap water conditions and your fertilizer routine can and will affect how much some plants thrive. As you saw with my experiments, some plants simply like less ferts in my tap water. That may completely turn around if I had pristine snow melt from the Sierras. I don't know.

But if you re-create ideal water (assuming you know what that is...most add too much crap back and ruin perfectly good RO water) from RO, you might do better. I know some people locally who struggled with Rotala until they went to all RO with minimal reconstitution.

If you can grow plants like Rotala mac, and Pantanal, that is fantastic! Most people cant do that.

Stick with what works for you. If you want to figure out why some plants are not growing, set up a 20 gal experiment tank in the basement somewhere, put on your lab coat and tinker away. In the meantime, if you have a display tank in the living room, stick with what you can grow. Tinker with the plants you cant, in the basement.

I still experiment with my Dutch tank. But the focus is not experimentation. I like to use it for getting better at Dutch scaping. I will add Lythraceae into it once a month or so. When it stunts, I go 'yep, I still suck at it,' yank the plant and move on. For the most part, what the Dutch sees is a steady stream of new species to see which ones thrive in it. I tend to keep winners in and toss out losers without banging my head too much.
 
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Greggz

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I still experiment with my Dutch tank. But the focus is not experimentation. I like to use it for getting better at Dutch scaping. I will add Lythraceae into it once a month or so. When it stunts, I go 'yep, I still suck at it,' yank the plant and move on. For the most part, what the Dutch sees is a steady stream of new species to see which ones thrive in it. I tend to keep winners in and toss out losers without banging my head too much.
Thanks Vin, this last paragraph is the perfect answer to my question. And I gotta tell you, I find it a bit comforting as I plot the next course for my tank.

And funny you mention setting up another tank. I have the extra 120G that leaked sitting in the basement now, and am getting ready to reseal it. I'm thinking of setting it up in the basement, and doing exactly as you suggested.
 
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Tom Barr

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Hi Pikez. thanks!

I was the master in stunting rotala/pogostemon :)

20x the sodium/chloride etc with Burr is quite a big difference. What are the absolute ppms?
And perhaps more interesting: what are these values in Tom's tanks?

As written before, my Chloride levels were in de 30-60 mg/l range. Na+ far less: 9-18 mg/l. So in my tank, I think we can rule ou sodium as the cause of stunting.

Tom, do you know these values in your tank?

greets,

Yme

No, but they have to be very low.
Roughly 5-6 ppm for Na+ and Cl- if it were pure tap water(I do massive water changes with good results).
It's almost entirely Bicarb for the alkalinity also.
So in essence, I do not need to use other methods to measure than pH and the table for the CO2.
But..........I do just in case.

The garage tanks have even lower levels for Na and Cl, since plants use these and there is less new tap water input.
Some Micro Toxers claimed that their tanks were running Na and Cl deficient, which I found very difficult to believe, and even less so after months without much addition of tap water.
Alk is almost nil.

TDS is higher in some tanks, more plant rotations in/out of those tanks, I toss plant bunches in there and they leach, so that's why there's a range of TDS's, from about 750 down to 50.
Whatever it is, does not appear to bother the plants much, they grow well in all the 4 tanks, light seems to be the only factor.

https://www.cityofsacramento.org/-/media/Corporate/Files/DOU/2015-CCR.pdf?la=en

Note, these are averages or just their sample routine for regulation compliance. It can vary outside those numbers. Rivers are most all Sierra Granite snow melt. Good stuff.
 

Tom Barr

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Solutions to chronic problems almost always require a new way of thinking.

Don't mean to sound like a Buddhist monk or Kung Fu Panda, but...: resistance from within is a bigger problem than most realize.

This is especially true for experienced hobbyists who already think they know what they are doing. So why change.

"Do not believe everything you think." -Frank Zappa

My chronic problems are human/social, not horticultural. I grew awesome plants in nasty tap, but there were limitations for some species, I did not have access back then to many of these same species.
But I would certainly speculate for these species listed above, tap differences could be a full or partial cause. RO blend with the Davis tap water fixed the issues I had for for Sygns Tonionia, R mac and wallichii. I cut 2/3 RO, with 1/3rd tap.

Davis tap has about 40 ppm as Cl- and 80 ppm as Na+, Alk is 270 ish. Cut those down by 2/3rds.
15, 27, 80ish.

Not near as nice as my tap here in Sacramento or in SF etc..........but not bad either.
Do clay soils mitigate some of these water column ions?
The Bay area has massive differences in tap water qualities.

This was awesome when I was starting out because we soon realized and saw differences and similarities in person in our local club.
And if so and so was doing it, why cannot I? You had to face up to your failings in a more honest way, but you got better as a result.
The web, not so much, harder to learn than in person.
 

yme

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Thanks Tom. Very interesting posts!

Roughly 5-6 ppm for Na+ and Cl- if it were pure tap water(I do massive water changes with good results).
It's almost entirely Bicarb for the alkalinity also.

Indeed very low. Interesting to see in the next rotala kill tank whether this is a determining factor.

What will be the setup? something like this?
A: lean column fertilization in 100% reconstituted RO water (no NaCl)
B: lean column fertilization in 100% reconstituted RO water + 50 ppm Na+ & Cl-

greets,

Yme
 

chroustík

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20x the sodium/chloride etc with Burr is quite a big difference. What are the absolute ppms? ... Tom, do you know these values in your tank?
I am not Tom, but based on the water report, and Tom's fertilization routine, he should have about the following concentration of the main ions in his 120G tank (= tap + fertilizers, not incl. fish, substrate, or other things that may alter the water chemistry):
HCO3- 17 ppm (0.8°dKH)
NO3- 30 ppm NO3
PO4--- 10 ppm
SO4-- 52 ppm
Cl- 2.8 ppm
Na+ 2.3 ppm
K+ 45 ppm
Ca++ 11 ppm (1.5°dGH)
Mg++ 3 ppm (0.7°dGH)

You can try to reconstitute your RO water to match the above values, and then try to grow similar plants like Tom (given you have enough light and similar soil substrate).
You'll see if the nutrient concentrations and/or ratios matter.
 
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yme

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the low NaCl values really stand out imho.

Do the Ca/Mg levels include the addition of GH booster?

greets,

Yme
 

chroustík

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Yes, they do.
PS: Be aware also that these are total (weekly) values, but Tom does not add the fertilizers once a week (i.e. in one dose only), so in fact the actual levels of some nutrients may be lower.
 
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bshenanagins

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Anyone that is considering buying one should check out PureWaterClub they have some awesome prices for their units and they work just as well as those high priced name brands.
 
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Rahul Jawahar

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Maka Red. Not pedicellata.

The wallichii (Maka Red) is not stunted in the classic definition of the word, which includes jagged tip twisting, and blunt cessation of growth. You don't have any of those issues. That'd be the next step. But the starting signs are clearly there.
When i looked close i could see some curved leaf tips but nothing major. one side shoot is looking ricketty but looks like it will recover. Here is the pic taken today 9 days after the previous pic . i will post both here
NOW
IMG_20170829_191547.jpg


BEFORE
IMG_20170821_145743.jpg


I dont know if maka red is wallichi cultivar , but it does not mind high macros, micros may be. I shud get some wallichi and see how it goes.
 
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Pikez

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Indeed very low. Interesting to see in the next rotala kill tank whether this is a determining factor.

What will be the setup? something like this?
A: lean column fertilization in 100% reconstituted RO water (no NaCl)
B: lean column fertilization in 100% reconstituted RO water + 50 ppm Na+ & Cl-

greets,

Yme

Close.

I have torn down, cleaned, vacuumed gravel thoroughly, and replanted the difficult species in both Kill Tanks. Mostly a few wallichii types

This is the still-evolving situation:

Plan for Kill Tank A: Right now it is 80% RO with no fertilization except fish waste. It will gradually become 100% RO soon. The water will be VERY LIGHTLY RECONSTITUTED. I'm calling it Light Water. I'll explain more later. But for now, the goal is to keep the softness and KH very low. Like I mentioned above, if some of these plants are sensitive to Sodium or Chloride or something else, why make RO water and ruin it by reconstituting it with Calcium Chloride or Sodium bicarbonate etc. Fertilizing (especially traces) will be shockingly light with equal parts ammonia and nitrate N. Since there is will be hardly any buffer, I expect the pH drop from CO2 to go from 7 to about 6.

Plan for Kill Tank B: This will remain full tap water. I'm calling it Heavy Water for fun. The water will have all the nasty stuff my tap water has always contained. Moderate KH at 6 or 7, but at least 100 ppm of sodium and chloride and several other potentially offensive stuff. Light and CO2 will be the same as Kill Tank A. Fertilizing will be exactly the same as Tank A - ultra-low traces and moderate macros with equal parts ammonia-N and nitrate-N.

Both tanks will have well-fed fish.

I will not be using Seachem Flourish in either tank. Everything will be home-made stock solutions. All chemical input will be TIGHTLY controlled. I've had guys with higher IQ double-check my dosing calculations.

This test will help me find out if Lythraceae prefer Light Water to Heavy Water (my tap). This answer might seem obvious, but that's an assumption that I'd rather not take. I need to test it. It test not designed to highlight WHICH offensive component of the Heavy Water is offensive. That might come next, depending on what we learn.

I know a lot of people who successfully apply EI to Lythraceae. But most of them have soft tap water or use RO...in other words they have Light Water. Does Light Water allow these plants to thrive in higher nutrient levels? And does Heavy Water make it hard for them to thrive in higher nutrients? @Tom Barr's Frank Zappa quote applies here.

Future experiments (depending on what happens with this one) could include Light Water + EI versus Heavy Water + EI. Or Aquasoil + no water changes. Or a continuation of this test but with added Chloride from Calcium chloride and/or added sodium from Baking Soda.

As I get closer to finding out what's going on, I'm turning up the rigor and precision. Bold claims will require it.
 

Pikez

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I am not Tom, but based on the water report, and Tom's fertilization routine, he should have about the following concentration of the main ions in his 120G tank (= tap + fertilizers, not incl. fish, substrate, or other things that may alter the water chemistry):
HCO3- 17 ppm (0.8°dKH)
NO3- 30 ppm NO3
PO4--- 10 ppm
SO4-- 52 ppm
Cl- 2.8 ppm
Na+ 2.3 ppm
K+ 45 ppm
Ca++ 11 ppm (1.5°dGH)
Mg++ 3 ppm (0.7°dGH)

You can try to reconstitute your RO water to match the above values, and then try to grow similar plants like Tom (given you have enough light and similar soil substrate).
You'll see if the nutrient concentrations and/or ratios matter.

I'm not Tom either. But I wish I was, with that kind of tap water. That's Magic Water (as opposed to Light or Heavy) with lots of macros. Not difficult to recreate with RO.
 

Pikez

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When i looked close i could see some curved leaf tips but nothing major. one side shoot is looking ricketty but looks like it will recover. Here is the pic taken today 9 days after the previous pic . i will post both here

I dont know if maka red is wallichi cultivar , but it does not mind high macros, micros may be. I shud get some wallichi and see how it goes.

Yes, Maka Red is a form of wallichii.

The problem (if you can call it that) is very minor. And only visible in older leaves of the wallichii.

But now that your pics show Persicaria with cylindrically curled leaves and Cuphea (??) with dimpled new leaves, it confirms what I previously said.

I don't think these plants mind higher macros, especially nitrogen.
 

Tom Barr

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Thanks Tom. Very interesting posts!



Indeed very low. Interesting to see in the next rotala kill tank whether this is a determining factor.

What will be the setup? something like this?
A: lean column fertilization in 100% reconstituted RO water (no NaCl)
B: lean column fertilization in 100% reconstituted RO water + 50 ppm Na+ & Cl-

greets,

Yme

I (like most farmers), consider Na+ a toxic thing much like copper, plants need some, but there's almost never a limiting case(copper may be limiting more so than Na+). Same for Cl-.

Set up would look at
Na+ @ 0 ppm,5 ppm, 50 ppm, 200ppm
Cl- @ 0ppm, 5ppm, 50ppm, 200ppm

I would not use lean water column ferts, that can add potential dependencies.
Light is a debate, ideally 3 treatment levels(30-60-120 umols).
CO2, non limiting for sure.

This is sort of the minimum testing ranges for a decent test.
If you only have 1-2 tanks, this will take awhile, but it's methodical.
If you had 4 tanks, then you could get things done quick.

Thing is, if you have 4 tanks that are well tended, you likely have few issues and become more concerned about nice scapes and contest, much LESS about general ferts and a nagging species you might have troubles with.
Some folks would much rather invest their energy there, than playing with test.

I have 4 neglected tanks outside in the garage for that test stuff.
I generally do little inside other than confirm something does well under X, Y and Z conditions that are not present in the garage tanks.
Say I have a lot of wallichii in the garage, I take it and add it to my tanks inside for a few months, garden and scape with it, then toss back or toss out in the compost.
It does well in both cases.

Because I garden a lot in the tanks inside, and large water changes to clean up afterwards, perhaps those things cause some issues?
Rather than ferts?

This is easy enough to test. I simply add ferts to the garage tanks since they are very very lean. And then observe.
After 1-2 weeks, those nutrients have been removed and sucked up by the plants. Repeat a few times to be sure.
If there's no negative response in both cases, then you have a good likelihood in your conclusion about ferts' impact over a wide range.

Aggressive trimming seems bad for some species. Recovery takes a bit of time, how you trim also makes a difference, topping or uprooting and planting the tops?
R. wallichii does well on all of these, but takes some time to sprout new tops. I tend to uproot and replant the tops. But I've done both.
 
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