Rotala Kill Tank

Tom Barr · Aug 27, 2017

Pikez said:
Discussion of 'other offenders' opens a proverbial can of worms. Lots of questions and few answers.

You go with what you can rule out easiest and work from there.
This was no different in the 1980's as it is today.
You can use Activated carbon for allelopathy(plant-plant type, not the hooey on algae), any DOC's.
Easy enough.

Tap RO replacement series back and forth.

SO4, less likely, I lard them suckers on with GH booster as it's mostly SO4 for the other part.
Chloride, perhaps. RO about the only way to remove it.
Then you COULD add say KCL back to the RO water............after the plants recover and are growing well, then treat and watch, and see post growth.

I'm trying to think of any other issues in the garage tanks that caused ratio or concentration levels to change where I've added more/less etc and if there was ever a negative response.
I cannot think of any negatives for Cuphea, A pedicillata. A senegalensis, R. mexicana red or araguaia, R wallichii. Since I also have 4 tanks............I have replicates as well. The plants do well in all 4 tanks.........
Since it is safe to say growing conditions and aesthetics are good as is for these tanks...........adding solely the treatment is a fairly robust test for falsification of the specific questions.

I would argue you must have that ....to really rule many such assumptions out and move on to the next question and assumption.
Then apply that to the problem tank.

So, take a 20 gallon tank.........or the Kill tank and convert.
A pair of the sponge filters, aged ADA AS. Rich CO2, good light.
No water changes.

The assumption I have (like the non CO2 tanks) : the plants will remove all the ions. They become somewhat limiting.
They will take up gold, uranium, radioactive, hexavalent chromium, Na and Cl.
A few trims, and it's all exported way down.

Plants all growing well? Then try messing with the treatment you speculate.
Often times, the more complex and driven our tanks become, the harder they are to manage.
Not just the trimming factors, but the testing factors also.

EI is simple in terms of management.
Adding say ADA AS and not dosing is simpler.
Non CO2 is even simpler.

Not doing water changes vs say doing them? Not doing them is simpler.
Sponge vs canister, vs Wet/dry etc. You have a few options to explore the questions and rule a lot more out than perhaps you think.
Now you might not care enough to do all that either.......

Fortunately, I've sold a lot of plants out of the garage tanks this coming week, so I can break things down more and clean them up again.
Chloride is an issue for a client's tank. I've narrowed it way down. I can grow Red Ludwigia super red fairly well in that tank, but few others. Ferns, Anubias etc.
KCl is used, so I added a DI pre treatment, and reduced the % water changes to no more than 20-25%. Plants have done much better.
Less Cl is coming in. K+ can be high without issues.

You can read the paper all if you want, but look at figure 2.

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup...ID-EWP6EEA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q

The plants that hate you might just suck at salt tolerance.
The tanks in the garage, salt levels hardly change.

SOD in aquatic macrophytes:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168945200004064

I found plenty of pondweed, Val and Hydrilla in Salt Spring in FL. SAlty to the taste and distortion in the water. Cl was about 1300 ppm.
Whitford studied algae in many of the Florida springs. He measured the ions etc. Levels are quite high in many of the springs there.
But...so are the lack of these weeds we like that you have that are touchy.

Sodium is a no brainer, but you can see with that also using say NaNO3 etc. Plenty of different salts.
Cl alone is less certain.

yme · Aug 27, 2017

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the lengthy post. For my tank,I used 100% RO water, with Sera mineral salt. This added 30-60 mg/l Cl. Depending of course on how much mineral salt I added. Total conductivity was no more than 700 uS/cm.
Would you expect Cl or salt issues with these values? I find that kind of hard to believe.

Greets,

Yme

Pikez · Aug 27, 2017

Rahul Jawahar said:
Its a new branded pH probe(HM-80) factory callibrated , so i didnt try callibrating and the readings were similar to what api test kit showed. Even if its uncalibrated the difference between two ph should be the same isnt?!!

why i associated it with increased ph drop? That was the only change i made in the last 2 weeks everything else was the same. Till then it was stunted with burned looking tips. I think the stunting started around the same time i reduced the co2 level when i reduced lights to 50% due to green water, i didnt care to increase it when lights were back coz all plants including L pantanal were growing good. I cant think of any other reason why it got unstunded

@Pikez the stem behind macrandra narrow- its a native plant,i guess its sold in USA as giant staurogyne . You had it some time back. I collected it from the wild. Not sure of the species so waiting for it to flower. It might be staurogyne glutinosa . Thats the only aquatic staurogyne described from our state.

Factory calibrated = not calibrated. Purchase some pH 4 and pH 7 calibration solutions and calibrate the probe. This needs to be done every month or every other month or so.

Yeah, I thought it was Staurogyne Giant. It is not commercially available in the US, but I imported it from India about 6 months ago. I've given it to a few people here to help spread it around. Nice plant. Somewhat picky about nutrients, compared to other Staurogyne.

I'll check out S. glutinosa,

I have a copy of a recent paper, revision of genus Staurogyne from South America. So we have scientific names for S. Porto velho, Purple, and Low grow. But I am unfamiliar with all the Stauros in Asia. There are dozens that could potentially be aquarium-friendly.

DutchMuch · Aug 27, 2017

Pikez said:
But I am unfamiliar with all the Stauros in Asia. There are dozens that could potentially be aquarium-friendly.

I will now have to research up on this, sounds really interesting...!
What would make a plant non aquarium friendly though? Just that it may not be able to grow submersed?

Also here is an interesting link I just found you (or anyone) may be interested in:
http://www.theplantlist.org/browse/A/Acanthaceae/Staurogyne/

Rahul Jawahar · Aug 27, 2017

Pikez said:
Factory calibrated = not calibrated. Purchase some pH 4 and pH 7 calibration solutions and calibrate the probe. This needs to be done every month or every other month or so.

Yeah, I thought it was Staurogyne Giant. It is not commercially available in the US, but I imported it from India about 6 months ago. I've given it to a few people here to help spread it around. Nice plant. Somewhat picky about nutrients, compared to other Staurogyne.

I'll check out S. glutinosa,

I have a copy of a recent paper, revision of genus Staurogyne from South America. So we have scientific names for S. Porto velho, Purple, and Low grow. But I am unfamiliar with all the Stauros in Asia. There are dozens that could potentially be aquarium-friendly.

Will get the probe calibrated and update.

Staurogyne giant never had any issues in my tank. Its growing well in a tank outside without any co2 or dosing under sunlight.

Btw whats the scientific name for staurogyne 'porto velho'?

DutchMuch said:
I will now have to research up on this, sounds really interesting...!
What would make a plant non aquarium friendly though? Just that it may not be able to grow submersed?

Also here is an interesting link I just found you (or anyone) may be interested in:
http://www.theplantlist.org/browse/A/Acanthaceae/Staurogyne/

Some plants which grow submerged in wild maynot grow in an aquarium atleast under usual conditions. Murdannia semiteres grows submerged in wild, but few ppl cud make it grow in an aquarium. Same goes for eriocaulon madayiparense.

Also plants that can be grown only by experts in aquarium cant be considered aquarium friendly imo.

DutchMuch · Aug 27, 2017

Rahul Jawahar said:
Also plants that can be grown only by experts in aquarium cant be considered aquarium friendly imo.

I can agree with this.
*cough* Pantanal *cough*

Pikez · Aug 27, 2017

yme said:
hi Pikez,

thank you so much for this thread. I have been a bit away from the forum due to personal stuff (birth of daughter buying/selling houses etc).

As you might remember, my tank also ALWAYS suffered from stunted rotala's. I did everything possible, but the stunting was always present. I ran my 90 gallon tank at full EI, I bought an vortech MP20. And I even bought an oxyguard CO2 meter so that I could measure my CO2 levels. Whether CO2 was at 20-30-40 mg/l or nearly killed my fish.... the rotala's remained stunted.

Like you, I concluded that CO2 deficiency was not the cause.
I love to know why. I failed in discovering the cause, but I surely hope that you do!

Yme

Hey Yme - congrats on the baby girl! And the house. Sounds hectic but rewarding.

As for stunted Rotalas, poor CO2 can cause something that looks like stunting, but it looks different. CO2-related 'stunting' is a fairly gradual decline in leaf size. With CO2 issues, there is no internode swelling and no leaf-tip curving down. If you want to see what internode swelling + leaf tip curving down looks like, scroll up and take a look at Rahul's Maka Red above. It has classic symptoms of nutrient/environment related growth issues, yet the tips are not scorched or twisted!

CO2 related 'stunting' (and I put stunting in quotes because it is very different looking and I don't consider it real stunting) does not have fraying or scorching, or what I call 'crisp twisting' at the very top.

When you stare at these stunted wallichii stems, hundreds of them for years, you begin to pick up variance in types and forms of stunting.

Stunting is a very general term used for a wide variety of issues these plants have. Each type of stunting has different causes.

Pikez · Aug 27, 2017

yme said:
I never went to the "lean side". I was always thinking that it was some sort of deficiency. So I basically added everything at high (or higher) levels.

Yme

There is NO NUTRIENT DEFICIENCY at full EI.

Tom should have called it No Deficiency Index.

Pikez · Aug 27, 2017

Tom Barr said:
You go with what you can rule out easiest and work from there.
This was no different in the 1980's as it is today.
You can use Activated carbon for allelopathy(plant-plant type, not the hooey on algae), any DOC's.
Easy enough.

Tap RO replacement series back and forth.

SO4, less likely, I lard them suckers on with GH booster as it's mostly SO4 for the other part.
Chloride, perhaps. RO about the only way to remove it.
Then you COULD add say KCL back to the RO water............after the plants recover and are growing well, then treat and watch, and see post growth.

I'm trying to think of any other issues in the garage tanks that caused ratio or concentration levels to change where I've added more/less etc and if there was ever a negative response.
I cannot think of any negatives for Cuphea, A pedicillata. A senegalensis, R. mexicana red or araguaia, R wallichii. Since I also have 4 tanks............I have replicates as well. The plants do well in all 4 tanks.........
Since it is safe to say growing conditions and aesthetics are good as is for these tanks...........adding solely the treatment is a fairly robust test for falsification of the specific questions.

I would argue you must have that ....to really rule many such assumptions out and move on to the next question and assumption.
Then apply that to the problem tank.

So, take a 20 gallon tank.........or the Kill tank and convert.
A pair of the sponge filters, aged ADA AS. Rich CO2, good light.
No water changes.

The assumption I have (like the non CO2 tanks) : the plants will remove all the ions. They become somewhat limiting.
They will take up gold, uranium, radioactive, hexavalent chromium, Na and Cl.
A few trims, and it's all exported way down.

Plants all growing well? Then try messing with the treatment you speculate.
Often times, the more complex and driven our tanks become, the harder they are to manage.
Not just the trimming factors, but the testing factors also.

EI is simple in terms of management.
Adding say ADA AS and not dosing is simpler.
Non CO2 is even simpler.

Not doing water changes vs say doing them? Not doing them is simpler.
Sponge vs canister, vs Wet/dry etc. You have a few options to explore the questions and rule a lot more out than perhaps you think.
Now you might not care enough to do all that either.......

Fortunately, I've sold a lot of plants out of the garage tanks this coming week, so I can break things down more and clean them up again.
Chloride is an issue for a client's tank. I've narrowed it way down. I can grow Red Ludwigia super red fairly well in that tank, but few others. Ferns, Anubias etc.
KCl is used, so I added a DI pre treatment, and reduced the % water changes to no more than 20-25%. Plants have done much better.
Less Cl is coming in. K+ can be high without issues.

You can read the paper all if you want, but look at figure 2.

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup...ID-EWP6EEA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q

The plants that hate you might just suck at salt tolerance.
The tanks in the garage, salt levels hardly change.

SOD in aquatic macrophytes:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168945200004064

I found plenty of pondweed, Val and Hydrilla in Salt Spring in FL. SAlty to the taste and distortion in the water. Cl was about 1300 ppm.
Whitford studied algae in many of the Florida springs. He measured the ions etc. Levels are quite high in many of the springs there.
But...so are the lack of these weeds we like that you have that are touchy.

Sodium is a no brainer, but you can see with that also using say NaNO3 etc. Plenty of different salts.
Cl alone is less certain.

Agree. Good references!

As far as pinpointing other secondary offenders, I am FAR LESS suspicious of sulfates than I am of chlorides. Not just from personal experience, but from how much of S and Cl plants need. Plant tissues literally contain 10X more elemental sulfur than chloride. That's sulfur, not sulfate!

My money is on chloride, between the two. Having never seen a Rotala in a high sodium habitat, that may be another one. Halophytes, Rotala are not! Easy enough to test.

There may be others too. We'll just have to rule out one factor at a time. May take years, but the learning itself is rewarding for me, so I'll probably continue to experiment until I cant handle it any more. Or until the wife wants the garage for something ridiculous like parking the car.

For the next chapter, since I have a nutrient approach for growing wallichii well, I will stick with what works and branch out to study the effects of tap water vs 100% RO with very little reconstitution.

Frankly, A. pedicellata may be better subject for the next few experiments. They were far more sensitive than wallichii in Tank B (tap water and very low nutrients.) Even when the wallichii got big and pretty in Tank B, many of the pedicellata stems remained stunted - better than the pedicellata in the high-nutrient tank, but still somewhat stunted. To me, this points, to some secondary offender besides CO2 or NPK or Fe/trace levels.

I have no idea what these offenders could be, but my tap has plenty of all of them. I used to think Burr and I had similar water. We don't. Not even close. My sodium, chloride, sulfate, levels are all 20X what his are. Bicarbonate/carbonate could be another issue. Could explain why he spent most of 2015/16 sending me a few stems of Rotala Sunset every couple of weeks. And I'd keep killing them.

Pikez · Aug 27, 2017

Rahul Jawahar said:
Btw whats the scientific name for staurogyne 'porto velho'?

Porto Velho is most likely Staurogyne spraguei.

But it needs to be confirmed by Cavan Allen.

Rahul Jawahar · Aug 27, 2017

Pikez said:
Hey Yme - congrats on the baby girl! And the house. Sounds hectic but rewarding.

As for stunted Rotalas, poor CO2 can cause something that looks like stunting, but it looks different. CO2-related 'stunting' is a fairly gradual decline in leaf size. With CO2 issues, there is no internode swelling and no leaf-tip curving down. If you want to see what internode swelling + leaf tip curving down looks like, scroll up and take a look at Rahul's Maka Red above. It has classic symptoms of nutrient/environment related growth issues, yet the tips are not scorched or twisted!

I thought the maka red was healthy. I couldnt make out the internode swelling and leaf tip curving down in maka red. Or did u meant the pedicilliata?

Pikez · Aug 27, 2017

DutchMuch said:
I can agree with this.
*cough* Pantanal *cough*

Rahul Jawahar said:
I thought the maka red was healthy. I couldnt make out the internode swelling and leaf tip curving down in maka red. Or did u meant the pedicilliata?

Maka Red. Not pedicellata.

The wallichii (Maka Red) is not stunted in the classic definition of the word, which includes jagged tip twisting, and blunt cessation of growth. You don't have any of those issues. That'd be the next step. But the starting signs are clearly there.

Tom Barr · Aug 27, 2017

Pikez said:
Agree. Good references!

As far as pinpointing other secondary offenders, I am FAR LESS suspicious of sulfates than I am of chlorides. Not just from personal experience, but from how much of S and Cl plants need. Plant tissues literally contain 10X more elemental sulfur than chloride. That's sulfur, not sulfate!

My money is on chloride, between the two. Having never seen a Rotala in a high sodium habitat, that may be another one. Halophytes, Rotala are not! Easy enough to test.

Me too, the Na+ and Cl you just need a different salt to work with that is not NaCl.

Frankly, A. pedicellata may be better subject for the next few experiments. They were far more sensitive than wallichii in Tank B (tap water and very low nutrients.) Even when the wallichii got big and pretty in Tank B, many of the pedicellata stems remained stunted - better than the pedicellata in the high-nutrient tank, but still somewhat stunted. To me, this points, to some secondary offender besides CO2 or NPK or Fe/trace levels.

I have no idea what these offenders could be, but my tap has plenty of all of them. I used to think Burr and I had similar water. We don't. Not even close. My sodium, chloride, sulfate, levels are all 20X what his are. Bicarbonate/carbonate could be another issue. Could explain why he spent most of 2015/16 sending me a few stems of Rotala Sunset every couple of weeks. And I'd keep killing them.

Both wallichii and pedicillata can be grown well together easily.
Try no water changes then.
Then you can mess with the Ferts and pulse higher levels to see if that's a direct independent factor or if they have dependencies.
I'm flowering the pedicillata here in a few days I suspect.
Sold off most of the farmed Red erios. So have some room and have some large rare plecos that are heading to the wholesalers.

Tap water issues can be a a real PITA.
We have set up a few RO automated water changes for folks with crappy tap or have salt exchangers for their homes.
But those membranes needed checked(TDS etc) and changed often to keep the water quality up.

We have seen the effects of the membrane fouling on plants. It's dramatic.
Minimizing water changes can work also, or eliminating then pretty much.
Now this might not work with few plants or lots of fish.

ADA As will bind Carbonates, many other ions and organics perhaps.
So that could offer some protective value if you can ID the ions.

One method is to add the Stew to ADA AS(say old and new AS), then take the aqua soil out and add to pure DI/RO water, say a 1 ml volume of soil to 10 mls of water and wait for 24 hours. You could even use acid to release some of the ions(yet another test). You could also homogenize the soil and crush and grind it up, then measure. Using a control would give the base line.

As you can see, you can test your ideas with a 1/2 dozen methods a hobbyist can do. You would test just for say Cl-.
You could also send the dry plant materials for nutrient analysis to a lab. Not that much $ actually. Just label it good and have enough reps to make some statistical support. Generally 5 or more.

Tom Barr · Aug 27, 2017

Rahul Jawahar said:
W
Also plants that can be grown only by experts in aquarium cant be considered aquarium friendly imo.

They can be assumed as stepping stones to become a better grower.
If you can grow X, Y and Z, then the easier plants are no issues.

You get better and better, not just so and stay there.

As I said to some prior, even top ADA contest folks:

Christophe · Aug 27, 2017

Tom Barr said:
They can be assumed as stepping stones to become a better grower.
If you can grow X, Y and Z, then the easier plants are no issues.

You get better and better, not just so and stay there.

One thing I've found from my explorations here is that while I'm hopping after a couple of plants that give me trouble, the easy ones look better than I thought they were supposed to -- Things I thought were just "OK, that's just the way it looks" get significantly better than what I had accepted before.

yme · Aug 28, 2017

Hi Pikez. thanks!

I was the master in stunting rotala/pogostemon

20x the sodium/chloride etc with Burr is quite a big difference. What are the absolute ppms?
And perhaps more interesting: what are these values in Tom's tanks?

As written before, my Chloride levels were in de 30-60 mg/l range. Na+ far less: 9-18 mg/l. So in my tank, I think we can rule ou sodium as the cause of stunting.

Tom, do you know these values in your tank?

greets,

Yme

Pikez · Aug 28, 2017

yme said:
Hi Pikez. thanks!

I was the master in stunting rotala/pogostemon

20x the sodium/chloride etc with Burr is quite a big difference. What are the absolute ppms?
And perhaps more interesting: what are these values in Tom's tanks?

As written before, my Chloride levels were in de 30-60 mg/l range. Na+ far less: 9-18 mg/l. So in my tank, I think we can rule ou sodium as the cause of stunting.

Tom, do you know these values in your tank?

greets,

Yme

If you stunt Rotala and Pogostemon, I am willing to bet money that you have issues with:

Ammannia
Cuphea
Alternanthera reineckii Mini and/or Variegated
Proserpinaca
Hottonia
Eriocaulon setaceum
Elatine triandra.

These are the usual suspects. What's the connection? There is, without a doubt, a thread that connects these troublesome plants for many of us. They are considered difficult by those who cant grow them. And easy weeds that grow by the buckets by those whose water and skills allow it.

May be even with some leaf issues with Staurogyne occasionally, stem necrosis in Ludwigia Red, although these are much easier to fix.

I have a strong desire to find it and fix it. Not just so I can grow these 'difficult' plants, because as @Christophe said, the other easy plants begin to look and act better too, as you fix the issue that causes the major problems. It's a win-win.

My sodium, chloride, sulafate ppm are all about 100 or just above. Burr's are about 5 or so. Tom's water is probably far softer than his city water department claims. I pulled up the published water department report from Tom's area of Sacramento, California - I suspect there is more snowmelt (almost zero hardness) than what the city report claims. I think Tom has low single digits (close to but not quite zero) Na and Cl. His sulfate is probably high from GH boosters. Without GH boosters, his sulfate is also probably very, very low.

In your tank, no, you cannot rule out sodium as a cause of stunting. Best if both are under 5 ppm IMO. Even better if they are under 1 ppm. Future Rotala Kill Tank experiments will test this.

You cannot rule out sodium until you have ruled out sodium.

yme · Aug 28, 2017

If you stunt Rotala and Pogostemon, I am willing to bet money that you have issues with:

Ammannia: YES YES YES
Cuphea: yes
Alternanthera reineckii Mini and/or Variegated: yes
Proserpinaca: very minor problems. main problem was melting of the stems: they became black and melted
Hottonia: never tried
Eriocaulon setaceum: never tried
Elatine triandra.: No, it grew great

So, in general I had problems with the usual suspects.

I have a strong desire to find it and fix it.

me too! have been trying almost a decade before I gave up.... but this thread gives me hope!

In your tank, no, you cannot rule out sodium as a cause of stunting. Best if both are under 5 ppm IMO. Even better if they are under 1 ppm. Future Rotala Kill Tank experiments will test this.

I agree. If you think such low levels might be problematic... than I absolutely agree. I does however require a complete new way of thinking.

greets,

Yme

Pikez · Aug 28, 2017

yme said:
I agree. If you think such low levels might be problematic... than I absolutely agree. I does however require a complete new way of thinking.

Solutions to chronic problems almost always require a new way of thinking.

Don't mean to sound like a Buddhist monk or Kung Fu Panda, but...: resistance from within is a bigger problem than most realize.

This is especially true for experienced hobbyists who already think they know what they are doing. So why change.

Pikez · Aug 28, 2017

I officially wrapped up the last experiment with the Kill Tank last week. See pics above. I've been meaning to tear down and set up both Kill Tanks for the next experiment. I tore down, removed plants, vacuumed gravel, etc, with Kill Tank A. It's ready for the next experiment.

But have not had time to do the same with Kill Tank B. Life got in the way. So it's been completely ignored for the last week. I have not even looked at the tank.

I did a water change exactly 7 days ago. I have fed the fish. No Flourish Comprehensive. I have even yanked out many plants and they are floating. But not all plants are floating. Some are still in the substrate. Only one of two Finnex strips was on - about 60 PAR at substrate with very poor spread. CO2 was steady as usual. I decided to peek in today after ignoring the tank for a week.

I was pleasantly surprised. Everything looked better than last week. I mean, there is still a ton of algae. But the plant health is better this week.

The one small stem of Pogostemon stellatus (next to the Pogo erectus) exploded in size. It is generally considered a high nutrient 'fert hog' plant that is prone to tip stunting when there is not enough nutrients. I have said so myself in the Dutch tank journal. In that Dutch tank, it grew best with LOTS of fertilizer and LOTS of everything. We considered it a difficult plant back in the 1990s. I nervously tried and failed a few times. Most people were stunting the tips back then. We mostly gave up. Somehow, when we began dosing higher levels of CO2, this plant became less of an issue for people. Nobody really complains much about it, like they do about AR or wallichii or pedicellata these days.

So we now know that it can grow well with hardly any nutrients, in nasty tap water, with very low light. But CO2 is good and the fish are fed.

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