Rotala Kill Tank

Pikez

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Tom Barr said:
Pikez,

Note how uneven the twisting is, in my plants, it's a nice relatively even twisting pattern that leads me to think it's just a normal growth pattern.


When you have it uneven, then it is suspect I would argue.


Also, I think ti is very important to realize not to cherry pick. If there is a stem or two that look ugly, it does not mean a lot. You trim it, remove it.


Likewise, if you have a GOOD, nice looking stem, well, you save and select for that.


I think some of our own artificial selection by/as hobbyists has led to different biotype types as well as collecting the same species from different populations.


So perhaps Ammannia pedicillata grows bad for some(Say the stuff from FAN), whereas other biotypes are much easier to grow. Same with R. magenta from say FAN, vs the red narrow leaf stuff I have that came from AFA as mini butterfly.


Still waiting for Don's Lugwigia lineatus. Looks very similar to A, pedicillata but with much less branching.

My Red Cross are still twisted randomly, but I can sorta see them assuming a pinwheel/propeller like shape that I see in yours.


Assuming this is the same plant (it looks like it), shows no swirling leaves: http://theaquatank.com/Plant/Rotala-Araguaia-Red-Cross


With Rotala Sunset, however, the pinwheel/propeller leaf growth is not ideal and often precedes droop/melt.
 

vilenarios

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Pikez said:
But not so easy to rule out CO2 as a cause. It's very hard to maintain a rich, even levels without pockets of low-flow and high competition areas.


In your case, the nitrate test kit may be off. It needs to be calibrated with a standard. There is no way your tank's nitrate can go from 10 ppm to 40 ppm if you are not dosing, unless you are farming channel catfish in there! :) I assume filters and substrate are clean and you are doing weekly 50% water changes.

Curious if you are running additional powerheads in the kill tank? My flow from the filter alone is not so great, so I have added a couple to help.


Filter is cleaned roughly every couple of months Just added purigen to hopefully help reduce some nitrates. I do have a heavy fishload, but not overstocked according to AqAdvisor.


Substrate is always cleaned during the sunday water change, which is usually between 50-60% water. I actually just bought another Nitrate test kit. Just measured now, and its around 5ppm, which is what I'm hoping to keep for the next few weeks to try to redden up some ludwigia arcuata.


Anyway, thank you for the information - this is definitely helpful.
 

Pikez

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I have a powerhead and a hang-on-the-back filter that adds additional circulation. Kill Tank is meant to be somewhat crude and unforgiving to plants. I am not trying to pamper them in this tank.


Nitrate limitation as a means to redder plants can backfire into deficiency territory. Certainly not for beginners or intermediates. None of my tanks are nitrate limited and there is plenty of red. May be too much red.


Two images taken in my high-nitrate Dutch tank. Both are unedited iPhone shots.


IMG_0684.jpg



IMG_1458.jpg



I followed 2-3 ppm nitrate per day (an estimate of what my tank may consumer per day) after reading this site" http://www.heimbiotop.de/ammannia.html#Kramer%202001 But I did not notice a marked improvement with any of the Lythraceae.
 

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Pikez, the initial grow out for the (Nesaea)Ammannia pedicillata will kill and slightly blacken the lower leaves, maybe slightly stunt the apical tip, but then new side shoots should be nice and clean.


Yes, that is red cross also in the link above.


Growth rate is quite good even under moderate light. I have better color in the middle of the tank. The plant does like high light.


I also finally removed the Rotala wallichii from the 120. I'll keep a little in the garage tanks.
 

rajkm

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I received the Rotala Red Cross in bad shape from theaquatank last week (after taking 1+ week to arrive from Ukraine without much moisture source in parcel). I see new leafs now and will keep you both posted on how it looks.
 

Pikez

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I think Rotala Red Cross may be the first casualty in the Kill Tank. Wow - Kill Tank may have finally killed something!


And it was my fault.


CO2 tube into reactor was disconnected. Not sure how long it was like that.


I was trying to see how the tank held up with just one LED strip light instead of the two Planted+. I am headed south to catch fish and other critters. Unlike my 2-month summer trip to asia, there won't be anyone to feed or watch the tanks for the next 2 weeks. No ferts or water changes while I am away. Plants will have to starve. So less light seemed like a good idea.


Kids are not old enough to administer ferts. Wife could do it, but I'm not pushing my luck - at least she's letting me go to a dicey part of the world with the condition that I have a satellite phone with me at all time. Heh-heh.


Anyway, the Planted+ resting on the tank rim has piss poor light spread. The Red Cross was not under the light for the last week, so it shed leaves, turned white, and some stems have begun floating up. I think I can turn it around. We shall see.


The learning is that this plant needs light. A lot of it. An in a tank that is borderline starving for nutrients, lack of light can push it over the edge.


Tom noticing good growth even in moderate light is a good sign - assuming all other needs are met. That is not the case in my tank. There are nutritional deficiencies. And with the poor light spread, I am guessing PAR was under 50 because light strip was not directly over the plant.


So, less-than-ideal ferts + CO2 issue + low light = dead Red Cross.
 
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Pikez

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Half dead Red Cross. Other plants are washed out looking too.


IMG_1632.jpg



A. pedicellata stunting seems to be over. Lower leaves are cruddy and overall color is lacking, at least under the Planted+, which is not red plant friendly. If you want to highlight red plants, I think a 2:1 ratio of Planted+ to MonsterRay is good.


 

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Red Cross will recover and sprout if you add a pot of new ADA AS in a higher light section.
 

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scottward said:
Pikez how much phosphate are you dosing in the kill tank vs dutch tank? Can excess phosphate block the uptake of micronutrients?

1)


Not any evidence I've seen (in my experience or others). Many have dosed higher PO4 than I do but lean Micros in ADA AS, still nice results.


Pikez knows those folks and has seen their tanks as well.


That would be a good control: very high PO4 and very low water column micro dosing.


Also, the sediments are loaded with both PO4 and micros such as Fe and Mn.


Far higher levels than what is typically found in the water column.


I think folks really have poor understanding of PO4 and Fe in sediments and what makes them bind or unbind.


That issues leads to all sorts of problems. Yes, CEC does matter, but.............redox levels matter. And the differences between plain sand and say ADA AS are huge.


Sand has poor CEC, aqua soil is massive. So both redox and CEC.


In short, ADA As provides better redox for nutrient release in the low O2 areas and binding sites in the upper higher O2 regions.


Sand it uniform overall, and does not provide binding sites.


2)


Flourite/Eco incomplete provide high surface area and many small crevices, and the bacteria can act as a small reservoir for CEC and binding sites, but nothing like ADA AS.


Mulm/detritus can also act in this capacity. Too much accumulation of detritus in either sediment seems detrimental(depends on loading rates/inputs of detritus). That was the idea behind powersand, but that was in theory, in practice is does not matter once roots grow down there. Particularly where the loading rates of detritus are small(Say the 120 Gallon vs the garage tank, big differences there). The 20's in the garage have very low loading rates of detritus and waste. Internal recycling is much more rapid in the 20's than the 120.


So there are large differences with sediment types (sand vs very rich soil), this should be a no brainer.


My older points addressed the water column since so many have been/are obsessed with the water column, but I've been a strong advocate for both locations.


This is a test tank of Pikez'. So the goal is more focused and specific.


I think for many who take this path realize over time than light and CO2, other basic things like trimming, good care etc are where it is all at.


But test tanks CERTAINLY CAN............offer some good insight and conclusions. There is no guarantee however.


My test tanks in the garage offer a good example but are specific to the same ADA AS sediment type. I used plain sand for 20 years prior, so I already have a pretty good understanding there.


3)


You can also do a simple test and remove CO2 and other gas exchange issues from the equation also.


Small flask can be used for emergent with soft sponge around the throat of the flask and a stem of the plant of interest can be added. Then you can add whatever nutrient broth in each flask that you want. This removes CO2 and structural sediment, and sediment/water redox is the same throughout the treatments.


Then it is just light and nutrients. So now you can run many samples, run statistical analysis, have good controls, minimize labor, and focus strongly on nutrients.


So you can keep isolating different factors, but if you go too far, then you sort of lose what we are doing with planted aquariums.


This is why I use the ADA AS. I am going to use it anyway and already have a long history with plain sand.


Pikez wants a more specific look at this plant family and water column nutrients.


Generally it is much more about convincing yourself than anyone else.


We see paradoxes and then need to see if we can grow plants under both/each condition/s.


Then see what we can safely conclude.


This allows us to explain why algae appears with PO4 dosing in one tank, but not another, or why micros appear to cause growth issues for one person, but not another.


We have answered the 1st, but are a little ways from the other for many folks.
 

Pikez

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scottward said:
Pikez how much phosphate are you dosing in the kill tank vs dutch tank? Can excess phosphate block the uptake of micronutrients?

Kill Tank dosage in ppm Nitrate-phosphate-potassium are: 6-0.75-6 every other day. Following Burr's dosing.


Dutch is: 15-2-? every other day. I add about 20 ppm K from the Potassium Bicarb KH booster plus the K from KNO3. Also add 0.8 ppm Urea/day.


So the phosphate level comparison is 0.75 ppm vs 2 ppm every other day in the Kill Tank and Dutch respectively.


I am not aware of excess P BLOCKING traces, but excess P, as we've all been told, can precipitate iron and possibly some other traces. I am fairly certain that 0.75 ppm phosphate every other day is not high enough to do this. If you have read Burr's journal over at TPT, this 0.75 ppm was arrived at after a long and tortuous process of tweaking. I don't believe Burr thinks 0.75 is the ideal, sweet spot, golden zone for P, but just a relatively trouble-free area in dosing concentration spectrum for tanks with inert substrates.


Having said that, I don't think my 2-3 ppm dose of phosphate in the Dutch is high enough to cause much precipitation either. I say this because P is relatively quickly absorbed and I dose traces at least 24 hours after dosing P.
 

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0.75 ppm of PO4 every other day is quite rich.


2 is a whole lot.


I dose every 3-4 days 5ppm, but I do a large water change 1st, then add back.


If folks add these frequently like this, the plants have plenty of access.


Particularly with soft low KH water.


Others I know dose 7 ppm of PO4 every few days, and dose less micros, but they have the ADA AS.


Their tanks look good.
 

Pikez

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skija said:
Found this a few days ago https://classicalaquascaping.wordpre...ency-toxicity/ , an article about a few stems

How true or false is this about "Iron toxicity of Rotala rotundifolia " ?


I don't want to sustain this post i'm just curious about your opinion guys

It's Solcielo Lawrencia's blog. Regular readers know his position on traces. He brings up a lot of good points, but we don't have enough evidence about what levels of traces, which metals, which macros do what to a specific species.


What I can say based on the Kill Tank, is that most plants are really hardy if you give them good amount of light and CO2. And there is preliminary (but unproven) associations for high traces and leaf tip misbehavior. But good maintenance seems to go a long way towards preventing these issues.


I'll post updates on Kill Tank after being gone for almost a month, on and off, with virtually nothing added during that month.
 

Pikez

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This update is connected to my travels as described on Post [HASHTAG]#1090[/HASHTAG] in the Dutch scape journal: http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr...quasoil/page73


I was basically gone for most of December. Gone for almost 2 weeks at first to the Amazon. No dosing at all during that time - wife was supposed to dose, but that didn't happen. Back home for 2 days. Did a trim, 90% water change and dosed macros and micros once in-between trips and was gone again for over a week. Again, there was no dosing during the second trip. No one was going to be home during the second trip, so I turned off one of the Planted+ strips.


The Kill Tank is fish-less and has an inert substrate. The ONLY nutrients are what I add to the system and from decomposing leaves. I do a good job removing old and floating leaves, so there is very little nutrient contribution from decomposition.


In a nutshell, the tank went a month with just 2 dosings. Macro dosing is moderate but not generous. Micros levels are very low. Given how low the micros are and given just 2 dosing of it, the tank did really well.


The tank did not look nutrient deficient after the first trip.


Ammannia pedicellata after being gone for two weeks:


IMG_1633.jpg



IMG_1632.jpg



However, at the end of the month, the tank looked like it was completely nitrogen deficient. Yet, there was no BGA or much of any other algae. The water was crystal clear.


The following plants were severely nitrogen deficient:

  1. Ludwigia Pantanal
  2. Rotala macrandra and rotundifolia (all forms)
  3. Rotala Red Cross (this plant suffered a lot)


A. pedicellata did OK. A. capitellata was showing signs of hunger. Rotala Sunset was unimpressive but ZERO melt or droop in the Kill Tank. (!!!)


Rotala Enie was not good. It may have suffered from nutrient limitation.


Many plants did REALLY well. Most notable is Rotala wallichii, the plant that was behind the creation of this Kill Tank concept. Frankly, I was amazed at how beautiful the wallichii leaves were. Near perfect. The color was a light rose and not bright red as they are in Tom's tank.


Bot the best picture (below), but it shows you the clean, unencumbered growth in Rotala wallichii after a month of near-starvation. I took this picture right after I returned home. It's been about 5-6 days now and the wallichii looks even better. The plant in the back in Hyptis lorentziana, another apparently hunger-tolerant plant. Hyptis is a good alternative to Acmella repens. Similar growth patters but with pinkish purple new leaves.


IMG_3318.jpg



Other plants that did really well during the lean month:

  • Ammannia gracilis
  • A. senegalensis
  • Hygro pinnatifida
  • Floscopa scandens
  • Proserpinaca palustris
  • Cuphea anagalloidea
  • Lagenandra toxicaria (?) green
  • Rotala Mini Type 1 Pearl
  • Ludwigia Red Diamond
  • Ludwigia sphaerocarpa
  • Erios Feather duster and breviscapum.
  • AR Variegated
As you can see, I've stuck in one or two stems of odd plants to test their will to survive. L. sphaerocarpa is supposed to be a nutrient hog, but it was in decent shape after a month.


AR Variegated stems that I'd somewhat discarded after their leaves got too wrinkled and twisted in the Dutch tank got completely 'fixed' in the month during starvation. This plant is more challenging than AR Mini and FAR MORE challenging than regular AR to keep flat, straight healthy leaves. AR Variegated looks great in this tank.


I know Burr grows AR Variegated in his inert substrate, hard-water, very low trace tank without any issues. So I'm not surprised that it did well in the Kill Tank.


Frankly, at this point, the Dutch tank seems more like a test of a plant's will to survive.


I've added Erio setaceum Type 3 and two stems of Rotala mac Variegated to the Kill Tank to see if they do better here than in the Dutch. Both were pretty stunted in the Dutch tank after my return. I'm now growing both species in both tanks to see how they respond to being nursed back to health.


Rotala sp. Enie below (a wallichi type) did not do as well as real wallichii when ignored for a month. It appears this plant is difficult but in different ways than regular wallichii.


IMG_3327.jpg



Cuphea anagalloidea (below) did fairly well.


IMG_3319.jpg



So what did we learn, boys and girl?


Most of these plants are hardier than we believe they are, assuming adequate CO2 and light are present. My Dutch tank, it appears, is where I kill my plants with kindness. The Dutch tank is more of a 'killer' than the Kill Tank.


Nothing dies in the Kill Tank. Dang!


Given the improvement in appearance in wallichii during the month, when light and CO2 remained stable, the only conclusion I can make is that the plant is not just super tolerant of low nutrient levels, but may even thrive in it. We know that it does well in high-nutrient tanks like Tom's. We also know that it does well in low-tech tanks with soil, and low light.


This begs the questions:

  1. Could the Burr Method, which this tank is modeled after, do well with lower macros? I'd say no, given a fish-less tank. It may be OK if I added fish.
  2. Could the Burr Method, do well with EVEN LOWER traces? I'd say yes. I used to think that the Burr Method used shockingly low trace levels (it is about 5% or 1/20th of standard EI levels in traces). But given the majority of plants did really well with just two dosing in a month and the other plants ran out of nitrates (and not traces), I'm thinking these plants could do well with even lower traces.


I've been doing this for about 3 months with 1 month at the end of unintended starvation. Oops! Think that counts as a variable in the test. Oh well.


So what next? I used to think that, may be, the next phase of the Kill Tank should be a lower macro + same micro variation. But that's not looking very appealing at the moment. I want to explore keeping the macros generous and lowering the traces even more.


If I keep the macros the same (NPK at 6-0.75-6 every other day) and lower the traces by 50%, my hypothesis is that some plants will become eventually trace limited. I want to find out which ones will suffer and how long it'll take them reach breaking point.


Traces will be 0.0075 ppm Fe from CSM+B; 0.01 ppm Fe from Fe DTPA (Total Fe = 0.0175 ppm) every other day.


Is anyone even CLOSE to adding 0.0075 ppm Fe as CSM+B every other day? Worth finding out. I know that 0.0075 ppm Fe CSM+B seems ridiculous, but the tank went an ENTIRE MONTH with just 0.03 ppm Fe CSM+B. And look how nice the wallichii looks!


As much as I want to dismiss these observations, the numbers and the healthy wallichii are staring me in the face. I cannot ignore that.


But I see a few issues on the horizon:

  1. My Colombia exporter is getting ready to ship me the fish that I caught. I may need to put some of them in the Kill Tank.
  2. There may be some remodeling of the garage/fish room as I'm still considering expanding by adding a few 8-foot tanks.
  3. I have two international trips coming up in late jan and early feb. So dosing will be erratic for 2-3 weeks.
 
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burr740

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Amazing result. Like I said in the other thread, I really expected....something bad!


Far as reducing traces further, for the past couple of months my backroom tanks have been getting .01 csmb and .01 dtpa. (this is the 50 gal, the 20 and the 10) Seems to agree with everything. My wallichii looks about like yours. First time it's done well for an extended period of time.


The 120 seems to need more Fe, havent determined if it'd prefer more via csmb or by itself.


Personally Ive never seen anything positive about running lean macros. Although P caused issues at 2 - 2.5 ppm 3x week, I suspect is related to these uber low Fe and traces. Other's results Im sure will vary.


N? As you know from our offline discussions, I ran into some issues shortly after cutting KNO3 down to 5-6 ppm 3x. Sounds like plenty, right? That what I thought.


Couldnt figure it out until looking back through old dosing journals when the plants were doing well, the only difference was much higher N levels.


So I bumped KNO3 back up to 7.5 and started .1 urea daily (not sure if that's enough urea make much difference or not) and the issues soon went away. So at least for me personally I feel like heavy N is definitely a good thing.


Im very interested to see what happens when you cut traces even further, as Im sure many others are as well. And once again, THANK YOU for documenting all this. Ive learned a lot already.
 
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fablau

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Yes, all this information is gold for us, thank you so much Vin.


I am really puzzled by the fact Tom can grow Walichii so well in a high traces environment. I can't think of an explanation for that. Can you?


A question for Burr: are you dosing macros pretty much at the same levels of this kill tank with the exception of N?


Thank you guys.
 
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burr740

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fablau said:
A question for Burr: are you dosing macros pretty much at the same levels of this kill tank with the exception of N?
The same except for N which I recently increased to the aforementioned levels. Total K is about 7 ppm per dose, 2 from K2SO4 and 5 or so coming from KNO3
 

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burr740 said:
The same except for N which I recently increased to the aforementioned levels. Total K is about 7 ppm per dose, 2 from K2SO4 and 5 or so coming from KNO3

Thanks for the info Burr. Do you guys think that P should be proportionally reduced to the dosed micros? I mean, do you think dosing of P and traces should be linked in some way?