Going Dutch with Aquasoil

Pikez

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It's been a while since I posted a full tank shot.





Still waiting on some plants to come in before I re-do the right side of the tank. I will probably toss all the Syn Belem. Want something red-n-fuzzy or green-n-grassy. Top candidates for the spot are Myrio tuberculatum and Erio Feather Duster respectively. Both are returning champs. But a reddish Myrio tuberculatum between Rotala Mac and Persicaria Sao Paulo may be too many non-green plants together. That's a violation of my personal style guide.


Not pleased with the center and right side of the tank. Already noticing the Rotala wallichii slowly disappearing. Color is gone. Leaf size and fullness is going away. In 10 days, it will be spiky nubs. I will have tossed it in 2 weeks. It's like I'm repeating Marcel Golias' experiment all over again. I'll move the Ludwigia senegalensis to where the wallichii currently is.


Same story as always. 30 years of plant tanks and still can't grow wallichii. I don't care that I cannot grow Nesaea pedicallata. But this bothers me. Time to question established beliefs and practices.


We all need something to cut us down to size.
 
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fablau

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Spectacular tank Vin, but I understand your frustration. Do you think there is a compromise for our tanks? I mean, maybe we should accept that we cannot grow so many different species in a single kind of environment... You could cut on ferts to favorite Wallichii, but you are gonna have problems with other plants, etc... Thoughts?
 

Pikez

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Thanks. I don't think it has to be a compromise, because others can grow wallichii in medium to high fert tanks even though in controlled experiments, wallichii always struggles in high-fert situations.


People who can grow wallichii well in EI conditions cannot explain WHY this plant behaves well in their tanks but not in controlled experiments. There are things we do not know. Some of us fall into ideal growth conditions that suit this plant without aiming for it.


Until we are able to clearly and correctly explain al of this, I won't accept resignation or compromise. One thing I know about myself is that I am a persistent SOB. I'll find a way. :)
 
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fablau

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Pikez said:
Thanks. I don't think it has to be a compromise, because others can grow wallichii in medium to high fert tanks even though in controlled experiments, wallichii always struggles in high-fert situations.

People who can grow wallichii well in EI conditions cannot explain WHY this plant behaves well in their tanks but not in controlled experiments. There are things we do not know. Some of us fall into ideal growth conditions that suit this plant without aiming for it.


Until we are able to clearly and correctly explain al of this, I won't accept resignation or compromise. One thing I know about myself is that I am a persistent SOB. I'll find a way. :)

Kudos to you Vin! I like your philosophy and I am struggling to embrace it myself. we should cross-experiment together to find out what prevent some plants to grow and other not to growl


Maybe a good starting point would be to compare the tank environment of those successful hobbyists you mentioned with our own tank environment. What do you think?
 

Pikez

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Fablau - let's compare Tom's tank with mine. His is much better filtered with a wet-dry. Mine is somewhat under-filtered with two Rena canisters. He uses T5 and I use LEDs. I'd say PAR is comparable. Other than that, substrate, KH, ferts, and maintenance are somewhat comparable. I would dare to say that even CO2 is comparable. I've already explained my super-charged CO2 system before at length. Flow is comparable.


Could better filtration and lighting be the answer?


I'd say no. Because my buddy in Simi Valley uses super hard tap water and 75% topsoil + 25% sand substrate with very little filtration or water change. He has weak lighting and no CO2. He grows lots of super healthy wallichii and wonders why I 'can't grow an easy plant like wallichii!'


It's hard to compare tanks and arrive at actionable conclusions. The only true test is your own tank pre and post one single variable. Make one change for 3-4 weeks. If it does not improve growth, then toss that hypothesis and start new. This is a great way to learn about horticulture, but it takes time and sometimes there is no need to reinvent the wheel.


Let's start with ferts as one variable.


One simple way to go about this is to use an All-in-One fert like Thrive. For my tank size, I'd need 32 ml dosed 3X per week according to Colin. If I were to mimic Marcel's experiments, I'd stay at 32 ml every other day for a month. Then go down to 24 ml for a month. Then 16 ml for a month. I suspect that by the time you get to 16 ml, I will notice some pretty hungry looking plants. This may be doable if light is reduced to 50-75% of regular PAR, but then you have two variables.


You could do the same with CO2. Most people need to inch up dosing. I can't inch up a whole lot more without gassing fish.


In most well-maintainced EI tanks, reducing both light and ferts while keeping CO2 medium to high will solve a lot of growth issues. May be all I need to do is reduce light and ferts even more.
 
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fablau

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Good point Vin, I think that's the right way to approach and I will try what you suggest for those plants I also have problems with. Please, keep us posted on the progress of your own experiments. Thank you!
 

Pikez

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fablau said:
Good point Vin, I think that's the right way to approach and I will try what you suggest for those plants I also have problems with. Please, keep us posted on the progress of your own experiments. Thank you!

Will do. FYI - Marcel Golias used 5 dosage levels. In ppm nitrate: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32. Most of us using EI are in the 32 ppm range + or -.


He began noticing wallichii having issues once the level increased above 4 ppm. No such issues with rotundifolia or sp. Magenta.


BUT! Didiplis diandra began having issues when nitrate got to 16 ppm and 32 ppm. Didiplis did better at 4 and 8 ppm nitrate. And sure enough, Didiplis belong the drama-queen Lythraceae family.


I could grow Didiplis amazingly well in my tank during the first month, when the AquaSoil was brand new and maturing. I was dosing nothing but a little potassium and tiny, tiny bits of trace. Now, the plant does OK. Not great, but just OK.


Fully documented results from Marcel's experiments with numbers and photos are on password-required website. Get in touch with him if you're interested. Don't expect to come away with all your questions answered. As with a lot of good research, it will raise more questions than you previously had.
 

nicpapa

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Pikez said:
Fablau - let's compare Tom's tank with mine. His is much better filtered with a wet-dry. Mine is somewhat under-filtered with two Rena canisters. He uses T5 and I use LEDs. I'd say PAR is comparable. Other than that, substrate, KH, ferts, and maintenance are somewhat comparable. I would dare to say that even CO2 is comparable. I've already explained my super-charged CO2 system before at length. Flow is comparable.

Could better filtration and lighting be the answer?


I'd say no. Because my buddy in Simi Valley uses super hard tap water and 75% topsoil + 25% sand substrate with very little filtration or water change. He has weak lighting and no CO2. He grows lots of super healthy wallichii and wonders why I 'can't grow an easy plant like wallichii!'


It's hard to compare tanks and arrive at actionable conclusions. The only true test is your own tank pre and post one single variable. Make one change for 3-4 weeks. If it does not improve growth, then toss that hypothesis and start new. This is a great way to learn about horticulture, but it takes time and sometimes there is no need to reinvent the wheel.


Let's start with ferts as one variable.


One simple way to go about this is to use an All-in-One fert like Thrive. For my tank size, I'd need 32 ml dosed 3X per week according to Colin. If I were to mimic Marcel's experiments, I'd stay at 32 ml every other day for a month. Then go down to 24 ml for a month. Then 16 ml for a month. I suspect that by the time you get to 16 ml, I will notice some pretty hungry looking plants. This may be doable if light is reduced to 50-75% of regular PAR, but then you have two variables.


You could do the same with CO2. Most people need to inch up dosing. I can't inch up a whole lot more without gassing fish.


In most well-maintainced EI tanks, reducing both light and ferts while keeping CO2 medium to high will solve a lot of growth issues. May be all I need to do is reduce light and ferts even more.

I dont think that ferts is the problem .


Toms adds a lot of them.


Did you try to adjust the surface?


I add a hang on filter for this on my 180lt tank , co2 and ph is more stable.


I try now to make my 180lt tank like the shimps tanks.


Lower ferts , lower grown , lower light.,loewer mainteance. :)
 

Pikez

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nicpapa said:
I dont think that ferts is the problem .


Toms adds a lot of them.


Did you try to adjust the surface?


I add a hang on filter for this on my 180lt tank , co2 and ph is more stable.


I try now to make my 180lt tank like the shimps tanks.


Lower ferts , lower grown , lower light.,loewer mainteance. :)

I have two large Koralia pumps aimed directly at the surface. There is A LOT of surface agitation. No issues with CO2 or pH stability because of the high-power CO2 system.


As for ferts, have you read all of Marcel Golias' experiment results, graphs, and photos?


Wallichii growth is hyper-sensitive to SOMETHING. Since ferts was the only variable being studied, there is no other way to interpret it than to say that this hypersensitivity is CORRELATED to ferts. The secondary follow-up interpretation in light of healthy wallichii growth in several full EI tanks is that there must be an unknown mitigation factor. CO2???


The results of the experiment, however, are not conclusive. But it is strongly correlated. In the absence of stronger alternate hypothesis, 1) sensitivity to ferts and 2) presence of a potent mitigator, have to remain.


Tom adds lots of ferts. His wallichii grows fine. Therefore this problem does not exist. That is an inadequate explanation. If CO2 is the mitigating factor, which I'm willing to accept, then, we have other questions to answer, like why it grows well in low CO2 ADA tanks and why wallichii barely survives in my heavily micro-managed tank with nearly 1.5 pH drop and a lot of circulation. Even when Rotala macrandra grows nicely!


nicpapa, I don't know if there is a Greek version of the English idiom: it's a can of worms! :)
 

fablau

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Pikez said:
Will do. FYI - Marcel Golias used 5 dosage levels. In ppm nitrate: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32. Most of us using EI are in the 32 ppm range + or -.


He began noticing wallichii having issues once the level increased above 4 ppm. No such issues with rotundifolia or sp. Magenta.


BUT! Didiplis diandra began having issues when nitrate got to 16 ppm and 32 ppm. Didiplis did better at 4 and 8 ppm nitrate. And sure enough, Didiplis belong the drama-queen Lythraceae family.


I could grow Didiplis amazingly well in my tank during the first month, when the AquaSoil was brand new and maturing. I was dosing nothing but a little potassium and tiny, tiny bits of trace. Now, the plant does OK. Not great, but just OK.


Fully documented results from Marcel's experiments with numbers and photos are on password-required website. Get in touch with him if you're interested. Don't expect to come away with all your questions answered. As with a lot of good research, it will raise more questions than you previously had.

Yes, I participated in the thread on TPT, and I would have registered on Marcel's website to see the rest of his experiments if the website were in English! I can't read Czech, and Google Translate doesn't do an enough decent job to grasp the nuances of his words... Too bad he got so upset and gave up publishing his results on that thread.


I also think this issue is a "can full of worms", I had my own similar experiences with some Rotalas and other plants they used to grow better with lower ferts and less Co2... And less flow... And pretty much the same light. How do you explain that??! We need to experiment...
 

burr740

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I never really trusted marcel's results, too much agenda imho
 
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fablau

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burr740 said:
I never really trusted marcel's results, too much agenda imho

I don't blame you Burr, I had similar feelings too when I saw how easy he got upset and stopped publishing his results for no apparent reason. Too bad, his work could have been of great value for everyone.
 

brwaldbaum

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Pikez said:
Will do. FYI - Marcel Golias used 5 dosage levels. In ppm nitrate: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32. Most of us using EI are in the 32 ppm range + or -.


He began noticing wallichii having issues once the level increased above 4 ppm. No such issues with rotundifolia or sp. Magenta.


BUT! Didiplis diandra began having issues when nitrate got to 16 ppm and 32 ppm. Didiplis did better at 4 and 8 ppm nitrate. And sure enough, Didiplis belong the drama-queen Lythraceae family.


I could grow Didiplis amazingly well in my tank during the first month, when the AquaSoil was brand new and maturing. I was dosing nothing but a little potassium and tiny, tiny bits of trace. Now, the plant does OK. Not great, but just OK.


Fully documented results from Marcel's experiments with numbers and photos are on password-required website. Get in touch with him if you're interested. Don't expect to come away with all your questions answered. As with a lot of good research, it will raise more questions than you previously had.

There are reports in the scientific literature for deleterious effects on macrophytes when the total nitrogen concentration exceeds 2 ppm.
 

Pikez

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burr740 said:
I never really trusted marcel's results, too much agenda imho

You're not alone, burr. I can see why you feel that way. I'm not surprised to see you or others hold this view.


There are two things that cloud his research:


1) He is very open and defensive about his position - that EI is excessive and scientifically unsubstantiated. OK. This is a perfectly valid position to hold, but the way he went about defending his position did not make him endearing. And by association, some people find his results suspect. This is too bad because the science is very good and almost publishable in peer-reviewed journals.


2) There were a lot of apologies, counter-apologies, expulsion, redactions, retractions and unnecessary drama. The only thing missing was a Kardashian. Once again, this makes it easy to conflate facts and emotions. People react to the emotions and reject the science.


This is not unusual at all. I've spent the last 25 years straddling science and business. This is a classic archetype among brilliant scientists. There is a ton of drama and name-calling among PhDs. I deal with it every day. But I've also made a career out of separating the great science these people publish from their vitriol.


I encourage people to overlook the drama and revisit Marcel's data. I think there is a lot of value in it and adds to our understanding.


Will it make your tank look better or my wallichii grow better? I don't know. That's to be determined.


My wallichii after 2 weeks. Just kinda sitting there, looking shell shocked.


 

Pikez

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brwaldbaum said:
There are reports in the scientific literature for deleterious effects on macrophytes when the total nitrogen concentration exceeds 2 ppm.

Aquatic macrophytes? Do you have any references? 2 ppm nitrogen allows us some wiggle room for nitrates. That's about 9 to 10 ppm nitrates.
 

fablau

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Good points Vin ;)


What happens with your Wallichii is exactly what happens for me with Rotala Nanjenshan. It just don't grow and then gets algae. I used to grow it wonderfully with just Flourish Comprehensive once a week, no macros (!!), low Co2 and Eco Complete.
 

brwaldbaum

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For what it's worth, here's what Paul Krombholz had to say about wallichii (June 2001):


"I have had similar experiences to those reported by Cavan with Rotala wallichii, and I have a hypothesis that when it goes down hill, the problem may be too many nutrients, rather than too few. My hypothesis is that wallichii is a high-light, low nutrient plant, and that some other members of the genus, Rotala are, too, such as macandra and rotundifolia (=indica). About a year ago, someone on this list reported a problem with indica that he called, aptly, "little-leaf" condition. The leaves get smaller and smaller, until they were hardly visible. Then the stem tip died. It looked like it might be calcium or boron deficiency, but it persisted when those two nutrients were added. I have seen the same thing in indica when it was in a heavily fertilized tank. When I moved it to a new tank, where I had a good supply of calcium (from ground limestone), along with excess potassium, magnesium, and sulfate, along with a good supply of micronutrients, but very restricted in nitrogen and phosphorus, the plant grew very well, with nice pink leaves. I have been ignoring the tank for many months, and the indica is still looking pretty good, whereas some other species---Hemianthus umbrosum, Didiplis diandra, and Cardamine lytra---have just about died out completely. I have some Bacopa monnieri in there that is still alive, but has lost a lot of leaves. The other plants with the indica that have held their own in spite of the neglect (no CO2 or nutrients for months---This is a tank without fish---) are Heteranthera zosterifolia, and Cryptocoryne walkeri." The rest can be found here:


http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200106/msg00243.html