Moving into EI: diatoms on my glass? Plants not getting better...

Tom Barr

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Pinch any old ugly leaves off the Alternathera.
Those leaves will never recover.
Cut and trim them off, but leave the plant rooted.
Some side shoots or tops will still have nice looking leave sunder that once you peel away the ugly leaves.

Sometimes this plant needs a bit of transition time and it'll stop taking care of some of its leaves, they get algae, you trim them off, and the new growth is nice thereafter.

Trim, water changes, add algae eaters, clean filters, check the tap to see if there's an in line water softener or something.
I just found that at a client's recently, I had no idea and no one told me.
The TDS data did not add up though.
 

fablau

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Gerryd;122027 said:
Hi Fab,

A couple things I noticed:

1. I don't see much leaf movement except for the hygro(?) you said is doing well. You said you had good flow but I don't really see it?

2. Can you show some video of your surface ripple?

3. Do you have a powerhead you can add to the tank?

4. You may as well trim those alteranthera leaves as they will not come back. If you trim however, and conditions are good, they will regenerate.

5. I know it seems like all is going downhill, but these things can take time.

You need to look at this holistically and realize that filtration, flow, c02, nutrients, tank maintenance, light, etc all must be in balance for the tank to do well.

Remember too, you can always revert to what you had before if you felt that was better, but I would not recommend that at all.

Your ph drop seems fine (is the meter calibrated?) so I would look to flow. Is the c02 getting into the plant thickets? Do you see all the leaves sway? Remember that pruning is vital to generate branching and also lush growth impedes flow at some point. A prune may be in order. This can also help you guage growth going forward.

Not all plants, but esp those with poor leaves. Trim them off and see.

Be patient as well. That can really be the hardest part. Most of us have been where you are with one tank or another....

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Fab,

A couple things I noticed:

1. I don't see much leaf movement except for the hygro(?) you said is doing well. You said you had good flow but I don't really see it?

2. Can you show some video of your surface ripple?

3. Do you have a powerhead you can add to the tank?

4. You may as well trim those alteranthera leaves as they will not come back. If you trim however, and conditions are good, they will regenerate.

5. I know it seems like all is going downhill, but these things can take time.

You need to look at this holistically and realize that filtration, flow, c02, nutrients, tank maintenance, light, etc all must be in balance for the tank to do well.

Remember too, you can always revert to what you had before if you felt that was better, but I would not recommend that at all.

Your ph drop seems fine (is the meter calibrated?) so I would look to flow. Is the c02 getting into the plant thickets? Do you see all the leaves sway? Remember that pruning is vital to generate branching and also lush growth impedes flow at some point. A prune may be in order. This can also help you guage growth going forward.

Not all plants, but esp those with poor leaves. Trim them off and see.

Be patient as well. That can really be the hardest part. Most of us have been where you are with one tank or another....

Gerry, I have done a new video this morning before trimming and WC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Z-TN90Z1E

I think to have enough water movement, I hope you can see from the video.

I have also just completed the trimming and removed all the bad Alteranthera. I have kept just the good stems, and trimmed way down the bad ones. Also, removed all the bad leaves I could find.

I am eager to know your thoughts.

Thanks!

Fab.
 

fablau

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Tom Barr;122029 said:
Pinch any old ugly leaves off the Alternathera.
Those leaves will never recover.
Cut and trim them off, but leave the plant rooted.
Some side shoots or tops will still have nice looking leave sunder that once you peel away the ugly leaves.

Sometimes this plant needs a bit of transition time and it'll stop taking care of some of its leaves, they get algae, you trim them off, and the new growth is nice thereafter.

Trim, water changes, add algae eaters, clean filters, check the tap to see if there's an in line water softener or something.
I just found that at a client's recently, I had no idea and no one told me.
The TDS data did not add up though.

Thank you Tom, as I said above to Gerry, this morning before WC I have trimmed all the bad Alteranthera and removed all the bad leaves I could found, diligently.

And it is nice to read what you say that "sometimes this plant needs a bit of transition time"... That was my first thought and I guess you are right. Probably It needs a little more time than the other plants to adapt to the new water conditions. That would make sense!

I have a big bunch of algae eaters (Otos, bushy noses and Amano shrimp), clean filters weekly... And about my tap, it is very hard, I measured this morning:

17 GH
7 KH


I have a in line charcoal based water filter for my entire home, it is the best you can find on the market:

http://www.lifesourcewater.com/products.php

It gives me pure drinking water by removing all chlorine, etc. but leaving all the minerals, and doesn't soften PH which is good for health (my PH from tap, after the filter, is ranging 7.2-7.8)

Thanks to that filter, I don't need to use a water conditioner, and that's pretty nice. I am just wondering if I am missing any good nutrients coming from my tap with this filter, but with the fact I am EI dosing now, I should be in good shape.

What do you think?
 

Gerryd

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Hi Fab,

You have an attractive tank with many different plant species. Here are my thoughts, for better or worse...

1. I see an enormous sword plant over to the right, and plant mass in general is on the higher side. Plant species vary on how quickly they can adapt to changing levels of c02 and other nutes, but esp c02. I think your tank had reached it's max plant mass capacity esp w/o any macro/micro dosing and this is what caused things to 'fall apart' once EI uncovered the next deficiency :)

2. I see very little to no surface ripple at all. O2 is very important to planted tanks and fish esp with injecting c02. You want the surface to move, but not break the surface. You may want to point one of your outlets at the surface and see what that gets you.

3. Flow - overall I think this is not sufficient. I would love to see the difference with your previous pump.

I will post a video tomorrow of my 75 and the surface ripple and flow. Take a look at my 220 video and you will see the type of surface movement I mean,

That said, I tend to overdo as I have gassed fish b4..

Hope this makes sense and helps a bit.

)Remember that you are changing/going to change a lot, so your plants need to adapt. Plus, one thing impacts another, so you may be fiddling/adjusting for awhile :)

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Fab,

You have an attractive tank with many different plant species. Here are my thoughts, for better or worse...

1. I see an enormous sword plant over to the right, and plant mass in general is on the higher side. Plant species vary on how quickly they can adapt to changing levels of c02 and other nutes, but esp c02. I think your tank had reached it's max plant mass capacity esp w/o any macro/micro dosing and this is what caused things to 'fall apart' once EI uncovered the next deficiency :)

2. I see very little to no surface ripple at all. O2 is very important to planted tanks and fish esp with injecting c02. You want the surface to move, but not break the surface. You may want to point one of your outlets at the surface and see what that gets you.

3. Flow - overall I think this is not sufficient. I would love to see the difference with your previous pump.

I will post a video tomorrow of my 75 and the surface ripple and flow. Take a look at my 220 video and you will see the type of surface movement I mean,

That said, I tend to overdo as I have gassed fish b4..

Hope this makes sense and helps a bit.

)Remember that you are changing/going to change a lot, so your plants need to adapt. Plus, one thing impacts another, so you may be fiddling/adjusting for awhile :)
 

fablau

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Gerryd;122061 said:
Hi Fab,

You have an attractive tank with many different plant species. Here are my thoughts, for better or worse...

1. I see an enormous sword plant over to the right, and plant mass in general is on the higher side. Plant species vary on how quickly they can adapt to changing levels of c02 and other nutes, but esp c02. I think your tank had reached it's max plant mass capacity esp w/o any macro/micro dosing and this is what caused things to 'fall apart' once EI uncovered the next deficiency :)

That may have sense... But does that mean I have still room of improvement, right? Or do you think I need to remove some plants?


Gerryd;122061 said:
2. I see very little to no surface ripple at all. O2 is very important to planted tanks and fish esp with injecting c02. You want the surface to move, but not break the surface. You may want to point one of your outlets at the surface and see what that gets you.

Well, as you know I have a sump with wet/dry filter, so I don't think to have any lack of O2. Above all now that I have improved the flow so much and that the sump is inundated of water and bubbles like a waterfall!

Also, I thought to point the nozzles down to avoid having Co2 going mostly to the surface and escaping out right away... Am I wrong here? What additional positive impact I would have by increasing the surface rippling besides what I have already with the wet/dry filter? The surface is moving as you can see from the video, there is a constant current everywhere.

Gerryd;122061 said:
3. Flow - overall I think this is not sufficient. I would love to see the difference with your previous pump.

The difference between the Eheim 2000 I am using now and the Eheim 3000 I had previously, is noticeable, but I don't think to justify its use since it just pushes more water around making the fish pretty uncomfortable, everywhere they swim, and besides that, the "water fall" created by the return flow in the sump is so loud that in my home seems like is raining pouring water everywhere!

Gerryd;122061 said:
I will post a video tomorrow of my 75 and the surface ripple and flow. Take a look at my 220 video and you will see the type of surface movement I mean,

That said, I tend to overdo as I have gassed fish b4..

Hope this makes sense and helps a bit.

)Remember that you are changing/going to change a lot, so your plants need to adapt. Plus, one thing impacts another, so you may be fiddling/adjusting for awhile :)

I look forward to see your video. What pump do you use for your main flow from the sump to the tank? Gl/hr? Just to have a comparison...

Thank you Gerry!
 
Gerryd;122061 said:
2. I see very little to no surface ripple at all. O2 is very important to planted tanks and fish esp with injecting c02. You want the surface to move, but not break the surface. You may want to point one of your outlets at the surface and see what that gets you.

Gerryd, you say this for an overall planted tank or one with a sump, like fablau?
I ask this because i still have this question overing on my head,
i have surface ripple, with the airstone, but i dont know, yet, if we plantedtankers need surface break for the gas exchange, or if surface movement is enough for that,
also, if he doesnt have any surface breakage, how will he resolve any surface scum issue?
 

fablau

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I would like to give you an update about my tank situation, so I made a video for you right now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1AYAykM9k0

Main issues are still with Rotala, Alternanthera and Ambulia.

To Gerry: I have increased rippling at the surface, but having a wet/dry filter at 2000 l/h I don't think to have any lack of O2 anyway.

Co2 has been slowly increased in the past 3 weeks to reach a PH drop of 1.2-1.3 (from 7.4 to 6.2-6.1)

I have some little algae on some Cabomba stems (not sure if it is BBA or what), as well as some GDA on my front glass despite I have a few Bushy Nose Plecos. But I always suffered of GDA in my tank for the past 3 years, so I am used to that. Let's say though, that by moving into EI I was hoping to definitively get rid of it, but looks like I haven't reached that needed balance yet.

Tomorrow is WC day, trimming plants and cleaning the glass.

Thoughts?
 

Tom Barr

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fablau;122352 said:
I would like to give you an update about my tank situation, so I made a video for you right now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1AYAykM9k0

Main issues are still with Rotala, Alternanthera and Ambulia.

To Gerry: I have increased rippling at the surface, but having a wet/dry filter at 2000 l/h I don't think to have any lack of O2 anyway.

Co2 has been slowly increased in the past 3 weeks to reach a PH drop of 1.2-1.3 (from 7.4 to 6.2-6.1)

I have some little algae on some Cabomba stems (not sure if it is BBA or what), as well as some GDA on my front glass despite I have a few Bushy Nose Plecos. But I always suffered of GDA in my tank for the past 3 years, so I am used to that. Let's say though, that by moving into EI I was hoping to definitively get rid of it, but looks like I haven't reached that needed balance yet.

Tomorrow is WC day, trimming plants and cleaning the glass.

Thoughts?


Ah.........videos make this much easier.

Good news, and I think you know it also, the tank is doing better and the A reineckii is on the mend.
Same for the Rotala, trim off the nicer new growth and replant that later as things regrow.
Anubias are doing well and you can see the new roots coming out.

I would trim and replant things a bit at this point, maybe give the tank another 1-2 days, big water change, trim BEFORE the water change or the night before if you do them in the morning.
O2, not an issue.
Stick with the CO2 drop you have, do not go farther.
Cabomba, do not worry much about that weed, you can out grow the algae and trim off the lower ratty parts soon enough.

I think you keep the plants trimmed a bit more and keep the faster growing stem plants whacked back, you will have much better luck here.
Most of the stems: uproot and replant the entire bunch. This is pretty quick and easy and keeps the nice new top growth.

Add maybe 4-5 more BNP's and that should fix the rest of the GDA issue.
Plants are starting to look decent and growth is there.

Some of the issue from the CO2: might be due to the prefilter and over flow.
You might detail that more and see Gerry's video on the subject and some other folk's postings about it.
It's helped a lot of folks with wet/drys and I have a client I need to modify their prefilter side this coming week in SF.

Remember this about light and CO2, those faster growing weedy taller stems and grasses, they will get the CO2 if limiting 1st.....then the lower spots and plants, like foreground plants, will get whatever is left.
This is a case where more light can help make things more even for CO2 uptake if it's limiting, but of the CO2 is not an issue, then the foreground plants can do very well even at lower light.
There is good justification for this in aquatic weed competition for light and CO2.

The weed that can first start photosynthesizing at low light as the sun comes up........and nab all the CO2 in a lake or stream= the winner.

But if you remove the CO2 limitation, then all these species do well together. So you will see some plants do well, and others not so well in such cases. Some plants have higher CO2 demand than others as well.
Similar low growth plants, or plants that can stand shading, eg Anubias/mosses....these do well in the mix. The fast growing weeds, I hack them back often.

You are about at that cusp now you can start gardening more and not fret over growth so much.
 

fablau

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Thank you Tom for the encouragement and detailed advice, appreciated!

I got it: start gardening now, indeed. Tomorrow I will trim as you are suggesting, trying to keep the good growth and discard the bad one.

Everything is actually beginning to make sense...

Thank you again, I will keep you posted!
 

fablau

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Everything is getting better, but today I have a question: I have now moved to full EI and I am dosing for a 75gl tank (my tank size):

Macros:

3/4 tsp KNo3
3/16 tsp KH2Po4
3/16 tsp K2So4

Micros:

Plantex CSM + B, 500ml solution for 75gl tank based on rota.la calculator


Here is my schedule, as EI recommends:

1. Saturday: 50% water change and macros
2. Sunday: micros
3. Monday: macros
4. Etc...

Today is Tuesday, and I have dosed micros, and I was curious to know the values of No3 and Po4 since the last macros dosing on Monday, so I made some reference solutions as explained here:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php?t=3263

And I get the following pretty high values:

No3: over 60ppm
Po4: over 7.0ppm !!

I am a little bit concerned about Po4. I have remeasured it several times, remaking the reference solution to double check it, and I keep getting that high value. I have tried two different API Po4 tests that expire in 2016, and I get the same result. Consistent.

Do you think those values are too high. Maybe my plants uptake isn't enough to justify such an high dosing regime? I am just wondering if I should maybe get back to dose for a 60gl tank as I used to do until 10 ago, which gave me No3 around 30ppm and Po4 around 3.0ppm... Just wondering...

Any thoughts are very welcome!

Thank you in advance.
 
Well, if you dont see fish/shrimp stressing about it, leave it for a couple weeks and then obverse, and go back bit by bit on the macros until you reach the critical point as said here: http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...I-can-get-you-there-with-a-small-modification

Tom also said that if you have all the macros done for, then you can crank up te ppm of Po4 and Fe and expect nice results out of it,
I also have Po4 at 4ppm due to ferts and i dont see and GSA, Fe at 0,6ppm by ferts.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, if you dont see fish/shrimp stressing about it, leave it for a couple weeks and then obverse, and go back bit by bit on the macros until you reach the critical point as said here: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/11691-Hate-water-changes-EI-can-get-you-there-with-a-small-modification

Tom also said that if you have all the macros done for, then you can crank up te ppm of Po4 and Fe and expect nice results out of it,
I also have Po4 at 4ppm due to ferts and i dont see and GSA, Fe at 0,6ppm by ferts.
 

fablau

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Thank you Tiago, I forgot about that thread. I have also decided to buy a TDS meter to easily measure the relative amount and build-up of ferts in the water column.

I guess I get those high values because my light is medium. Am I right?

Thank you again.
 

reef12

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Tank seems to be coming along nice Fablau.

Will be better in a few months.

Takes time after you start the EI ,I know algae, plants look like dying weeds , but bang once that sweet spot is hit, all up hill after that.

Keep at it , but remember will take time, weeks , a few months to really get it going.

Good start though.

Jeff
 

fablau

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Thank you Jeff.

Yes, I really see some plants are getting along very nicely such as Higrophilas, Anubias, Vallisnerias, Star Grass, Microswords, they are really blooming! But Alternanthera and Rotala are taking a longer time to adapt to the new conditions, very little improvements every day... Ambulia is the worst one, it really doesn't grow. Looks like it is "stuck". Hopefully new plants coming from you will help to replenish them. I will keep you posted! Thanks!
 
I hope i can shine some light on those plants,
I also noted that Althernantheras, both reineckii mini and the bigger one, took longer to adapt, but since my CO2 got stable and the flow as well, the roots grew, and they simply flourished better, new leaves came bright red,
Some grow wrinckled but they seem to get normal now,
Rotalas seem to grow little leaves, some get burned on the tips, but then they get good, spcially since trimming half of it,

So you may be experiencing the same effect, they are getting used to the new conditions ;)

- - - Updated - - -

I hope i can shine some light on those plants,
I also noted that Althernantheras, both reineckii mini and the bigger one, took longer to adapt, but since my CO2 got stable and the flow as well, the roots grew, and they simply flourished better, new leaves came bright red,
Some grow wrinckled but they seem to get normal now,
Rotalas seem to grow little leaves, some get burned on the tips, but then they get good, spcially since trimming half of it,

So you may be experiencing the same effect, they are getting used to the new conditions ;)
 

reef12

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Maybe and just maybe new lights might be in order.

And a big maybe say T 5 Ho or along that line, as I will do the 75 in T5 will let you know how that reacts to it.

Also maybe another tank for you too.

Bigger is actually easier on errors also, swings in Ph ammonia and all, when I did Salt the only way.

Plants will go out today.

Jeff
 

fablau

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Yes, my plan is to wait at least another couple of weeks before make any change, but if after 2 weeks I still don't see improvement for Ambulias, I will figure something else, and light could be it!

In the meantime, I have ordered a bag of ADA aqua soil that I would like to put over the current substrate I have in the Ambulias area. Do you think that's something smart trying? I am still thinking about the possible bad substrate there, and maybe aqua soil could help with that. I have also bought some bacter balls to try to put into the substrate... But I think I will try first with a small area to see if actually works.

Thoughts?
 

fablau

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Guys, forget what I wrote about AquaSoil, I didn't know that it can release ammonia a big deal! I will try to add just some Bacter Balls under some of the Ambulias to see if that helps. I am beginning to get frustrated with those plants because everywhere I read, looks like they are real beginner plants, so I shouldn't have any problems with them!!!
 

Tom Barr

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If you fear sour sediment, you can uproot that section, then deep vacuum it good, and let the fines and gravel etc fall back down, but all the mulm, suck out.
Do this say maybe 1/4 or so of the tank per water change, so in 2 weeks or so, things should be nice and clean. You can trim and clean the plants up nicely and then 2 weeks later, the plants will be all nice and clean and the tank is ready for good care and growth.
Then once going well, you can mow the tops and wait for hedge like new growth for many species.

Water changes will mitigate the ADA AS. I added about 9 liters to the 120 Gallon and the tank as running etc.
I was doing more water changes, but you have an existing filter and bacterial load already.Water changes 2-3x a week + the filter should easily handle this.
Just make sure to do them for 3-4 weeks or so, and then 2x a week for another 2-3 weeks.
 

Tom Barr

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If you fear sour sediment, you can uproot that section, then deep vacuum it good, and let the fines and gravel etc fall back down, but all the mulm, suck out.
Do this say maybe 1/4 or so of the tank per water change, so in 2 weeks or so, things should be nice and clean. You can trim and clean the plants up nicely and then 2 weeks later, the plants will be all nice and clean and the tank is ready for good care and growth.
Then once going well, you can mow the tops and wait for hedge like new growth for many species.

Water changes will mitigate the ADA AS. I added about 9 liters to the 120 Gallon and the tank as running etc.
I was doing more water changes, but you have an existing filter and bacterial load already.Water changes 2-3x a week + the filter should easily handle this.
Just make sure to do them for 3-4 weeks or so, and then 2x a week for another 2-3 weeks.