What to do?

scoupland

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I made a huge mistake. I started my tank using the DSM. The plants were healthy and filled in the tank. When I finally filled my tank with water I had forgotten that I was going on vacation a week later. I did several water changes in the first week and then left my tank (running as listed below except the lights were only on 4 hours/day) and when I came back 8 days later, most of the plants were dead. I assume the there were still a lot nitrates leaching out of the AS aquasoil. I have done a lot of water changes since then and replaced the dead plants. It has been several weeks since I have returned and the tank is still not doing well. I make 50% water changes several times/week. The lights are running about 7 hours/day. I have a lot of algae (see the photos below). My understanding is that algae is usually a CO2 and light issue. Should I cut down on the light period? Get a light controller to ramp them up and down? Should I raise the CO2 level thus lowering the pH? Change my dosing regimen? Any other ideas?

Here are some photos of the sad state of my tank. http://s1326.photobucket.com/upload/
You can see the stauro is starting to come back, but the other plants are not doing well. The plants are not pearling.

Tank: rimless 4L x 2D x 19”H, 80 gallon, single internal overflow
Filtration: Wet/Dry filter with bioballs. There is a filter pad on top of the drip pan and a sponge post bioballs.
Return pump: Sicce 3.0
CO2: Aquariumplants CarbonDoser electronic CO2 regulator, Milwaukee monitor/controller and External reactor 5000
Lighting: 2 x 48” TrueLumen Pro LED 8000k fixtures on top of the tank, 7 hours. No controller at this time.
Aqua UV 15W sterilizer powered with a Sicce 2.0 pump. Not presently running it.
Auto dosing: E.I. daily with KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, Plantex CSM+B, Iron Chelate and Ferrous Gluconate using the rota.la calculator.
Temp control: JBJ titanium heater and TradeWind Chiller
Water parameters:
½ RO and ½ tap
Water temp: ~77
pH=6.7
gH: 3-4 Serra test kit
KH: 4-5 Serra test kit
Substrate: AS aquasoil
Plants:
Bolbitis heudelotii
Staurogyne repens
Cabomba Carolina
Ceratophyllum demersum
Bacopa Monnieri
Hemiantus cuba
Ludwiga repens
Ludwigia senegalensis
Fissdens fontanus
and a few others. I had a number of others but they died so I threw in some cheap plants.
No fish or shrimp yet.
 
Mar 20, 2013
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When plants are in a weakened state, you don't want to hit it with a shit load of light. Just let whatever ambient light there is and give the plants some time to recover.
 

scoupland

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So, I can cut back the lights and slowly ramp them up over time. Any other suggestions? Could the LED lights be a problem? Should I yank the plants and start over? What about all the algae? Do I need gH booster?
 
Mar 20, 2013
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I wouldn't even turn them on assuming there is enough ambient light in the room from the windows.

Also, plants may appear to be dead when they are not. Give it some more time and they'll recover. When they recover, then turn on lights. All of your plants will survive low light levels.
 

scoupland

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Sounds good. Should I continue to dose fertilizers at the "E.I. daily" recommended levels since the lights are off, and when they are turned on it will be for short periods? Would it be helpful to lower the pH (it is presently at 6.7)?
 
Mar 20, 2013
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No, do not dose daily as you'll end up adding way too much, potentially into the toxic range. Dose once in the beginning so that it doesn't run out. The physiology of the plant is dependent on light; the more light, the more it grows, even if certain nutrients are deficient. That's why you lower the light, so that it doesn't force certain chemical reactions in the plant. Don't even bother with pH as it's not very important.

Also, a picture of the state of the plants would help since I'm offering advice based on my own experiences, not on the condition of your plants.
 
Mar 20, 2013
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You have severe BGA (cyanobacteria.) The BGA pond is kind of neat. And a lot of diatoms.

What is your CO2 level? Do you know? That's really important considering how much light you had on the plants. You're using a wet/dry which will cause a lot of CO2 outgassing. Low CO2 combined with high light seems to be the issue. This caused your plants to stunt which means all the nutrients that went into the tank were being used by the algae, not your plants. Also, you don't have very many plants in there to begin with so you may have been adding too much.

Since you have a UV sterilizer, you should run it. Increase flow. Reduce lighting.
And since you have no livestock, I'd crank up the CO2 to super high levels. This will result in lower pH. The lower pH may prevent some of the algae from growing and may eventually kill it. I hope you have patience because this will take weeks.

Or go and buy erythromycin, which is an antibiotic which will eventually kill it.

And turn off the heater as high temps increase the rate of bacterial division.
 

scoupland

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My CO2 is and has been 6.7. It goes up a bit in the evenings because the CO2 is turned off. I was running the CO2 during the hours I had my lights on in the day. It is also temporarily up to up 7.1 following water changes. I can run the CO2 24/7 to keep it consistently lower. My pH probe is inline and measures the pH after the water goes through the W/D filter and return pump and before the CO2 is injected into the external reactor. The drip pan and bioball section of W/D filter is enclosed. If my pH is running consistently at 6.7 at the position in the system, it does not seem like I would be off-gassing much CO2. It is certianly possible my logic is wrong on this.

I used to have a lot of plants in the tank, but most died. I replace a lot of them with some cheap plants and most of them died too. So, it looks pretty barren right now. Should I add more at this point or wait to I get rid of the algae?

I will run the UV sterilizer, and increase the flow. How many hours should I run the lights? Should I run both LEDs or just one of them?

I don't think my heater is ever on. The A/C unit that cool my office is not functioning well so the room is on the warm side. The chiller runs a lot and keeps the temp at about 77 degrees. Should lower the temp at all?

I may try the erythromycin.

BTW--I really appreciate your input.
 
Mar 20, 2013
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Do you know how much co2 in ppm is being added? pH=6.7 doesn't say anything about how much. Adding fertz lowers pH as well.

Since it's in your office, then I assume that there is enough ambient light. I would not even turn it on as it's just going to power the algae and cyanobacteria.
 

Tug

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scoupland;115630 said:
Here are some photos of some of the plants: http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/scoupland/library/?sort=3&page=1
Click on the photos to make them larger.

Note the algae on about everything. The stauro is starting to grow back. It was once a solid green bed as was the HC. Any recommendations on treating the algae. I think I read a thread somewhere on a H2O2 based treatment.

I look at three conditions when treating a tank with BGA (Cyanobacteria).

  1. High Biochemical oxygen demand or B.O.D due to dirty filters and such.
    Strong oxidizers like H2O2 and Potassium permanganate (KMnO4), large water changes, pruning, cleaning, etc. help improve/reduce BOD. Personally, I would check my filter cleaning routine and step it up until the tank turns around. Simply removing surface film can improve O2 levels. If an intervention is needed, then H2O2 or KMnO4 are often used to oxidize organic waist when water changes aren't enough. These oxidizing agents also degrade the cell walls of cyanobacteria.

  2. Low levels of NO3, PO4 and K+.
    Anything that slows plant growth can be counterproductive. Stay with your normal EI dose and throw in some extra large water changes during the week. Do not create another problem by limiting nutrients.

  3. Water flow (all things CO2 and O2 related).
    This is were to look for that gotcha moment. An improvement is needed and you need to find it. The good news is plants recover quickly from carbon deficiency - finding the right 2 to 3 knots of water flow that is loaded with CO2 provides fast results.

Increasing the available CO2 and improving water flow should be your main focus.
You can treat (in this case maybe should treat) BGA directly. But, as long as the underlying issues are unchanged (CO2 and water flow) it will continue to be a nuisance.

Lighting may have even more variables to consider then CO2. The range of lights available to the hobbyist provide such different levels of light. If you can, borrow a PAR meter. I follow Hoppy's guidelines when trying to determine low, medium and high light levels.

From some of the available data, PAR from one "TrueLumen Pro" 17 inches from the light is around 40 mmol PAR. With two lights positioned to provide an even spread of light, your PAR could be anywhere from 40 to 80 mmol. With those levels of PAR, CO2 availability is imperative. One way to counter this high demand would be to reduce the light. You might try running only one light to begin and end the lighting cycle, using both lights for a period in-between.

You might also try lowering the water temperature a few degrees. It will allow for higher saturation points for both CO2 and O2.

One last thing about BGA. There are some planted tanks where everything is as close to perfect as is possible and still they have a small area in the tank with BGA. You may never be able to eradicate it completely. You can make the environment less hospitable and the best way is keep a healthy environment for plants.

As for the treatments used to fight BGA, I have never used erythromycin. I do hear mixed results about its effectiveness when the issues mentioned earlier are unaddressed. The information for dosing erythromycin is available on the web.

I would be happy to explain dosing KMnO4 in more detail, if you have any questions. The information for dosing H2O2 and KMnO4 are also available on the web. I have had experience using KMnO4 with great result. I can only assume H2O2, being a strong oxidizer itself, will offer similar results. It is easier to obtain and is worth trying. Finish the treatment with a large water change and a three day black out and keep moving forward.

Using PAR - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184368
What is Potassium permanganate - http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/potassium-permanganate
What is Cyanobacteria - http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/cyanobacteria
Controlling cyanobacteria - http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/controlling-cyanobacteria
 
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Tug

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scoupland;115462 said:
I made a huge mistake.
Tank: rimless 4L x 2D x 19”H, 80 gallon, single internal overflow
Filtration: Wet/Dry filter with bioballs. There is a filter pad on top of the drip pan and a sponge post bioballs.
Return pump: Sicce 3.0
CO2: Aquariumplants CarbonDoser electronic CO2 regulator, Milwaukee monitor/controller and External reactor 5000
Lighting: 2 x 48” TrueLumen Pro LED 8000k fixtures on top of the tank, 7 hours. No controller at this time.
Aqua UV 15W sterilizer powered with a Sicce 2.0 pump. Not presently running it.
Auto dosing: E.I. daily with KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, Plantex CSM+B, Iron Chelate and Ferrous Gluconate using the rota.la calculator.
No fish or shrimp yet.

I am just thinking out loud. I have never used the Aquariumplants CarbonDoser electronic CO2 regulator and it might be great. Most reviews I can find are old but the reviews are mixed.

Is the Milwaukee external reactor 5000 working for you? Again, I'm not familiar enough to say but it might not handle the flow you need for the tank you have. If it does, you might try running the water from the reactor into a Y fitting to provide flow to both sides of the tank. I would be trying to talk with someone who has used either of these two products - see if replacing them with better components is your best option or if there is a small adjustment that can improve it in some way.

Sorry I can't be of more help in this area. Overall, from what I've read both components should be sufficient for your tank. The "seconds per bubble" sounds backwards - like it might be unreliable at more then 4 bubbles per second.
 
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scoupland

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Solcielo lawrencia;115633 said:
Do you know how much co2 in ppm is being added?

I don't know if this is the best method for measuring CO2 in ppm but I put some tank water in a flask and measured the pH. I let it sit for 24 hours and measured the pH again. Assuming .5 in difference = 15ppm, my CO2 level is 36ppm. From one of Tom's threads I read, he recommended 30-40ppm. So, it looks like I am in a good range.

Tug;115662 said:
I look at three conditions when treating a tank with BGA (Cyanobacteria).

  1. High Biochemical oxygen demand or B.O.D due to dirty filters and such.
    Strong oxidizers like H2O2 and Potassium permanganate (KMnO4), large water changes, pruning, cleaning, etc. help improve/reduce BOD. Personally, I would check my filter cleaning routine and step it up until the tank turns around. Simply removing surface film can improve O2 levels. If an intervention is needed, then H2O2 or KMnO4 are often used to oxidize organic waist when water changes aren't enough. These oxidizing agents also degrade the cell walls of cyanobacteria.

  2. Low levels of NO3, PO4 and K+.
    Anything that slows plant growth can be counterproductive. Stay with your normal EI dose and throw in some extra large water changes during the week. Do not create another problem by limiting nutrients.

  3. Water flow (all things CO2 and O2 related).
    This is were to look for that gotcha moment. An improvement is needed and you need to find it. The good news is plants recover quickly from carbon deficiency - finding the right 2 to 3 knots of water flow that is loaded with CO2 provides fast results.

Increasing the available CO2 and improving water flow should be your main focus.
You can treat (in this case maybe should treat) BGA directly. But, as long as the underlying issues are unchanged (CO2 and water flow) it will continue to be a nuisance.

Lighting may have even more variables to consider then CO2. The range of lights available to the hobbyist provide such different levels of light. If you can, borrow a PAR meter. I follow Hoppy's guidelines when trying to determine low, medium and high light levels.

From some of the available data, PAR from one "TrueLumen Pro" 17 inches from the light is around 40 mmol PAR. With two lights positioned to provide an even spread of light, your PAR could be anywhere from 40 to 80 mmol. With those levels of PAR, CO2 availability is imperative. One way to counter this high demand would be to reduce the light. You might try running only one light to begin and end the lighting cycle, using both lights for a period in-between.

You might also try lowering the water temperature a few degrees. It will allow for higher saturation points for both CO2 and O2.

As for the treatments used to fight BGA, I have never used erythromycin. I do hear mixed results about its effectiveness when the issues mentioned earlier are unaddressed. The information for dosing erythromycin is available on the web.

I would be happy to explain dosing KMnO4 in more detail, if you have any questions. The information for dosing H2O2 and KMnO4 are also available on the web. I have had experience using KMnO4 with great result. I can only assume H2O2, being a strong oxidizer itself, will offer similar results. It is easier to obtain and is worth trying. Finish the treatment with a large water change and a three day black out and keep moving forward.

Using PAR - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184368
What is Potassium permanganate - http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/potassium-permanganate
What is Cyanobacteria - http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/cyanobacteria
Controlling cyanobacteria - http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/controlling-cyanobacteria

Tug;115664 said:
I am just thinking out loud. I have never used the Aquariumplants CarbonDoser electronic CO2 regulator and it might be great. Most reviews I can find are old but the reviews are mixed.

Is the Milwaukee external reactor 5000 working for you?

Sorry I can't be of more help in this area. Overall, from what I've read both components should be sufficient for your tank. The "seconds per bubble" sounds backwards - like it might be unreliable at more then 4 bubbles per second.

Thanks for the very helpful links and info Tug.

I have my bubble rate set at 2bps right now and my CO2 level, as noted above, is at 36ppm, so I think the Aquariumplants Carbondoser must be working.

In my W/D filter I have a prefilter and post-sponge. I am cleaning both more frequently and replacing the prefilter more often.

I didn't see your post before I started treatment with Erythromycin. I followed treatment plan I found elsewhere. At this pint, it looks like the cyno is just about gone. I did a final treatment yesterday and will see how it looks in the next couple of days. I have also been doing a lot of large water changes. I haven't lower the water temp yet. I will see how things go. I have only run one of the TrueLumen Pro lamps. I just received a controller for these lights yesterday so I can warm the lights up and down, but unfortunately, one of the splitters on it is defective so I will be sending it back for a replacement. I am dosing normally. The NO3 level is 25ppm. Some of the plants are slowly starting to grow again but they have a long way to go. I have not seen any pearling yet. I am thinking of putting so cheap plants in to see how they respond.