"The Aquascaper Complete Liquid Plant Food " by George Farmer, how does it work?

DutchMuch

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Im confused by this (again) all in one plant food fertilizer thing. I thought the micro's and macro's needed somewhat different storing enviroments by themselves? what seperates the chemicals anyway?... in the comments some said E300 Ascorbic Acid and E202 Potassium Sorbate separates them.

If anyone has anymore info on this product I'd love to hear it please.
Thanks

 
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Pikez

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Micros and macros don't need different storing environments. The concern has always been mixing phosphate and iron. They can precipitate - bind and drop out of solution, so you end up with less than what you thought you were adding.

Makers of this product and Thrive+ have figured out a way to keep phosphate and iron behaving nicely. Part of the secret, I'm guessing, is low phosphate, so there is less to precipitate. They may also be using form of iron that is less likely to precipitate.

Ascorbic acid lowers the pH (increases acidity) so mold/fungus don't grow in the solution. E202 is an anti-fungal agent. Anti fungal agents have no role in keeping anything 'separate.' Just keeps it from going cruddy.
 
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DutchMuch

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Micros and macros don't need different storing environments. The concern has always been mixing phosphate and iron. They can precipitate - bind and drop out of solution, so you end up with less than what you thought you were adding.
Thanks Pikez for the reply, I heard from NilocG that macros Could be stored in a cooler environment to prevent fungus or mold growth? i tried it with one of my macro bottles once and it worked i guess because i got no fungus or mold growth chunks in it. Excel i hear works as well, add 1ml to a certain amount i forget.... (of course)
This is why i consider myself a "noob" still even though ive been in this hobby for 3 years (not really that long comparing to other people) and know basic chemicals and some of their components. Looks like next year im taking chemistry now...

Im still somewhat skeptical, been tempted to mix a batch myself and see what happens

Well if you do please post your results in here, and the process in a thread somewhere so i can overlook it and see how it goes on your part. Personally i don't think until 2030(yr) they will invent a Perfected way to mix micro's and macro's having 0 failure or flaw once so ever.

But i must ask burr if you know, how come they don't interact in a low ph, and they do in a higher ph?
 

DutchMuch

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hm.. This stuff is so neat to me.. So in a higher PH (this is what im getting) Fe, will mix with P? And if that's right, what happens when they mix? (sorry for the amount of questions, just trying to learn as much as possible)
 

burr740

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Low pH keeps the Fe-DTPA bond tight. Makes iron less likely to wander off and get busy with the phosphate.
Right, but is it really as simple as just preserving the chelate here? Seems like if that's all there was to it folks would've been mixing their csmb and macros together with a dash of vinegar all along.
 

Pikez

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Right, but is it really as simple as just preserving the chelate here? Seems like if that's all there was to it folks would've been mixing their csmb and macros together with a dash of vinegar all along.

It may be as simple as it sounds: small amounts of phosphate mixed in with a strong iron chelate.

Colin did with Thrive. Now George Farmer and these guys have done it. I'm sure both went through several prototype solutions before arriving at the commercial formula.

Since you've been blending ferts of late, you could easily test your theory with PortalMaster's testing equipment. Forget about N, K, Ca, Mg, and the other micros. Mix a few different concentrations of just phosphate and Iron DTPA. You mix it up, store it for a few weeks. Then send off to measure P and Fe. You know the theoretical input. Actual numbers will be lower than theoretical input due to precipitation. I think you'll find that higher the P, lower the Fe. I suspect a commercial formula like Thrive+ is lower-than-EI in P and there is built-in iron overage to compensate for the minor amount of precipitation.

It may be as simple as that. Colin and George may be reading this and laughing their asses off. Who knows. People have been told not to mix their macros and micros. They listen. I know I do.
 

rajkm

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You should look at this.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm

Many people derived their all in one based on this (I believe including George Farmer, who I think made his based on numerous discussions on TPT, but don't quote me on that).
I have made my own too using the same. It works and don't see any precipitation. But your tank PH also has to be low else once in water they will individually react.
 
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burr740

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Thought this was interesting, from the article rajkm linked

Most chelated trace mixes on the market contain Fe-EDTA and are brown in colour. This is because the type of iron used is ferric iron. Ferrous iron compounds tend to be green in colour. When making up the 'All In One' solution you may see that the solution turns green in colour over a period of a few hours. This is because ascorbic acid is able to reduce the ferric Fe-EDTA to ferrous Fe-EDTA. This is quite normal and nothing to worry about. In fact it might be of benefit as plants prefer ferrous iron to ferric iron.
 

Amanda Adkins

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The binding of the phosphates with the iron makes both unavailable to the plants. Another reason to only have plant nutrients, macro or micro, in limited quantities is that any microscopic organism that finds its way into the solution will be happy and grow unless there are critter killing ingredients in the solution. A better idea is to purchase dry fertilizers and mix a quantity of solution that will be used in a month or less; and to store that in a cool dark place like a refrigerator.
 

nilocg

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The binding of the phosphates with the iron makes both unavailable to the plants. Another reason to only have plant nutrients, macro or micro, in limited quantities is that any microscopic organism that finds its way into the solution will be happy and grow unless there are critter killing ingredients in the solution. A better idea is to purchase dry fertilizers and mix a quantity of solution that will be used in a month or less; and to store that in a cool dark place like a refrigerator.

Hi Julia, fortunately its pretty easy to stop the phosphates from binding, also pretty easy to stop any organisms from growing. This is a common misconception that micros and macros cant be combined together. Also storing concentrated nutrient mixes in fridges can cause solubility issues so thats something to think about as well.
 

Amanda Adkins

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In my experience, it is a good idea to not have or make more fertilizer solution than your tank will use in a month or less and keep the solution in a cool, dark place. Fertilizer is another word for plant food. With few exceptions, all living organisms require the same nutrients. Any microorganism that finds its way into the solution will consume those nutrients and will grow and reproduce. This will use up the nutrients and can make the solution cloudy and clumpy. If the cold makes a concentrate less soluble, mix it with warmer water.