Stretch 72 Peninsula Tank, v2.0

Christophe

Subscriber
Lifetime Member
Oct 3, 2013
395
270
63
Albuquerque, NM, USA
A few photos from Friday night before Saturday trim & water change.



Somebody’s been eating their Wheaties! The glandulosa is still a mixed bag of success and stunting. The big one here is one of the first in the flow pattern. I’ve got seven stems of it, I’d be happy with four if they all looked like Jumbo here. I’m going to thin it out & see if I can get several good ones.


Ludwigia sp. red is probably the tank champion so far. This will be its second trimming. That’s 12 stems in the sand. I am going to cut it back to nine stems, and cut them down to half size at that.


Acmella repens has almost doubled in size, and pearls up a storm. That said, it is showing some leaf distortion, is picking up a little BBA on a couple of leaves, and is not entirely happy. It’s brightly lit, got good flow and first crack at the CO2 swirling down from the distribution pattern. Any thoughts?


Ammania bonsai is growing slowly but clean, a low-key success story.


Penthorum is doing well in its little corner. It has been part of the musical chairs while I shift things around for where they’ll do well and contribute best to the look of the scape. Didiplys diandra has been the hardest to place. Flow in this setup is much better than my previous scape, so diandra gets pushed around a lot by current unless the spot is just right.

 
Last edited:

Christophe

Subscriber
Lifetime Member
Oct 3, 2013
395
270
63
Albuquerque, NM, USA
fablau said:
It looks very nice Christophe, great job! I am sorry I missed your thread so far...

What's your current dosing regime?

I mix tap water 50:50 with DI water, add MgSO4 and K2SO4 to get my source water to this point:


K 8.0 ppm


Mg 8.0 ppm


Ca 25 ppm


SO4 62 ppm


Na 17 ppm


Cl 20 ppm


GH 5.3


KH 2.6


Macros, total per week


NO3 15 ppm


PO4 2.0 ppm


K 10.3 ppm


Micros, total per week


Fe 108 ppb


Mn 50 ppb


Zn 8 ppb


Cu 1.4 ppb


Mo 1.1 ppb


Because there’s already boron at 40 ppb in my tap water, I’ve stopped dosing that entirely.


Fe is 75% from gluconate, 25% from DPTA chelate. I had been doing even amounts of Fe-Gluc, Fe-EDTA, and Fe-DPTA. Seeing that the chelators don’t biodegrade, and that EDTA has gram-negative antibiotic properties, I thought I’d try cutting back on the chelators, and dropping EDTA entirely for a while.


Since it’s a fairly fresh setup, and no-CEC substrate, I get the opportunity to see how '‘trace'’ I can go with the traces.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

fablau

rotalabutterfly.com
Staff member
Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
3,015
679
113
53
Laguna Niguel, CA
www.fablauplants.com
Christophe said:
I mix tap water 50:50 with DI water, add MgSO4 and K2SO4 to get my source water to this point:


K 8.0 ppm


Mg 8.0 ppm


Ca 25 ppm


SO4 62 ppm


Na 17 ppm


Cl 20 ppm


GH 5.3


KH 2.6


Macros, total per week


NO3 15 ppm


PO4 2.0 ppm


K 10.3 ppm


Micros, total per week


Fe 108 ppb


Mn 50 ppb


Zn 8 ppb


Cu 1.4 ppb


Mo 1.1 ppb


Because there’s already boron at 40 ppb in my tap water, I’ve stopped dosing that entirely.


Fe is 75% from gluconate, 25% from DPTA chelate. I had been doing even amounts of Fe-Gluc, Fe-EDTA, and Fe-DPTA. Seeing that the chelators don’t biodegrade, and that EDTA has gram-negative antibiotic properties, I thought I’d try cutting back on the chelators, and dropping EDTA entirely for a while.


Since it’s a fairly fresh setup, and no-CEC substrate, I get the opportunity to see how '‘trace'’ I can go with the traces.

Thank you for the detailed information. It looks like you are doing it right and we see the results. Keep it up!


Interesting you have Boron in your tap, where do you live?
 

Christophe

Subscriber
Lifetime Member
Oct 3, 2013
395
270
63
Albuquerque, NM, USA
Five weeks into the new system, I've been revisiting my Clemson water quality report. Things are going pretty well for the most part. I do continue to see some squinchy leaves in AR and Ludwigias, glandulosa and sp. 'red'. They grow, but periodically stunt, even without any significant changes.

Going back to the Clemson water report, there was a warning regarding the sodium level. I wanted to check that out, so some reading was in order. Here are a couple of things that caught my interest:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC139373/

http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2017/03/what-is-the-effect-of-chloride-in-hydroponics.html

Looking really critically at my plants, one thing I might say is that they might hint at shortages of macros, K and nitrate. Stauro, for example, never looks quite as green in my tank as other people's photos. Older leaves particularly can be kinda yellowed. When it gets crowded, stauro's older leaves deteriorate for me. From what I can test among the macros, I never am short for any of them. The rotalabutterfly accumulation calculator shows that K should be happy even at fairly absurd plant consumption rates.

So starting next week, I'll be upping the percentage of DI water in my mix from 50% to about 72%, with the aim of bringing Na down to about 10ppm. I have some Seachem Equilibrium around, so I can maintain my GH level pretty much as it currently is. This will have the effect of significantly boosting K also. If it's going to have an effect, it should be pretty apparent within a few weeks.

burr740 , I saw a water report from you back in November, post #9 here: http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...tion/240974-the-other-things-in-our-tap-water . Your sodium level is particularly low, a pretty significant difference from mine.
 
Last edited:

fablau

rotalabutterfly.com
Staff member
Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
3,015
679
113
53
Laguna Niguel, CA
www.fablauplants.com
Christophe said:
Albuquerque New Mexico.

Sorry, missed your reply here. Well, very interesting you have such an high level of Boron in your water supply there... plants will like that indeed! And I see you also have enough Fe as well! yet to see if plants can use that Fe anyway.... but clearly you have rich tap water ;)
 

Christophe

Subscriber
Lifetime Member
Oct 3, 2013
395
270
63
Albuquerque, NM, USA
At last update a few weeks ago I was starting to see things settle in and some problems becoming apparent. The twisting & stunting I’ve periodically seen in AR and L. glandulosa was coming on with a vengeance. Also was seeing signs of macro shortages — yellowing of older leaves in staurogyne repens, some pinholes in stauro and Hygro corymbosa compact. The most striking was Acmella repens. I got 10 stems from Burr in perfect shape back in April. Three or four weeks into May, the leaves didn’t have the normal spade-like, pointed shape, and they were kinda bulgy between the veins, discolored dark green. Older leaves started with pinholes and BBA. So I got to thinking about potassium.

I add a bunch to my water when mixing it for the weekly 56% change, as well as what comes along with my regular dosing. Playing with the nutrient accumulation calculator at rotalabutterfly.com, I find it hard to picture less than 15-20ppm of K being there in the tank at any given time. Shouldn’t that be enough? I’ve had comments off and on through the course of my journals here about how my plants looked to be lacking macros. I dose plenty, and the measurable things are always plentiful in the tank at any given time. Shouldn’t that be enough?

I revisited my water report and saw a ‘moderate warning’ about ‘sodium adsorption ratio’. What’s this? In terrestrial soil, water with too high a sodium concentration impedes K adsorption, and over time replaces Ca and Mg in the soil, leading to its breakdown and ineffectiveness. I looked further into sodium and its involvement in plants, and found these articles:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC139373/
http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2017/03/what-is-the-effect-of-chloride-in-hydroponics.html

And since the website redesign here, the Barr Report articles are suddenly much easier to get to. So it seems Tom wrote about this one AGES ago: https://barrreport.com/articles/sod...ic-macrophytes-volume-2-issue-7-july-2006.19/

The sodium level in my tap is 35.2ppm according to the Clemson test, and about that in the city water report. I had been mixing tap with DI water 50/50 — that brings it down to 17.6 ppm, with GH 5, KH 2.5. So I’d been operating with basically a 1:1 ratio of K to Na. Perhaps enough to create an induced deficiency in some more sensitive plants? So in theory, a plant needing K may be as likely to pull in relatively useless Na. If plant cells are bringing in either useful K or less useful Na by the same mechanism, I might want to have a lot more K available in the water than Na. Some plants are perhaps better at handling this than others, maybe this accounts for why some things show bad signs more quickly.

Could I test this by throwing a lot more K2SO4 into the mix? Yeah, but… since my experience with chronic high-dose micros, I tend to be skeptical of the ‘moarMoarMOAR!!!’ theory of managing everything.

So what I’ve done since June 10 is to blend a lot more DI water, 93% DI : 7% tap, and remineralize back up to GH 5, KH 2.5, with the goal of cutting sodium below 3 ppm, and chloride to about 7 ppm. Since I’m adding stuff to almost blank slate water, I figured it’s an opportunity to rethink how I dose macros as well. I had been doing three even doses through the week. Now I’m just doing 60-75% of my macro dosing directly in the water change with a couple small booster doses through the week. This might reduce TDS fluctuation through the week also, maybe keeping things friendlier for bitchy plants.

Results so far: Not disaster at the very least.


Everything across the board seems to be growing faster, pearling more, bigger diameters, flatter leaves, better color. Particularly the species that started to show problems a few weeks in.

Acmella Before
Notice the rounded bulging leaves on most of the plants in this pic from May 26. See also the BBA spots on the lower leaves.


After
Normal pointed spade-shaped leaves for the most part. A couple of the more damaged plants are slower to recover, but they’re showing positive signs, throwing better-looking side shoots.


Ludwigia Glandulosa
Note the severely stunted plant on the far right. I nearly pitched it two weeks ago, but decided to hang on to it just to see. Last Wednesday, it started sprouting new leaves. At the same time the other four plants all show flatter leaves than I’ve seen in a while. All at the same time. This hasn’t happened before! It’s always been whack-a-mole, some looked good, most didn’t. Much better now.


So this seems to have been a significant improvement from working an issue that wasn't really on my radar. The moral of the story? Read those old Barr Report articles!!!

IMG_0588_zpsavqecviu.jpg


IMG_0626_zpsuawmrnsw.jpg
 
Last edited:

Dman

Subscriber
Jun 2, 2017
55
52
18
48
Winnipeg Canada
Beautiful plants Christophe,

I dread replanting my AR mini in my aquasoil but love every other aspect of it. I look at the tanks on here that have inert substrates and the plants you all grow prove to me inert substrates such as BDBS is a better choice if you have a lot of stems or like to do a bit of replanting.

BTW what Led is that you have?

Dan
 

burr740

Micros Spiller
Moderator
Feb 16, 2015
1,404
1,328
113
Great update. That's very interesting about sodium. Seems Im lucky to have a very small amount in my tap - 1.5 ppm, and 10 chloride which isnt exactly low but not too high either

Ive also been thinking about dosing macros a little differently, for the same reason said to have more even levels in the water column.

Once I settle on a good micro dose from the home brew, which it seems like Im pretty close to now. Im going to try something like you're doing, say a double dose after water changes and a regular dose mid week, on the 4th day maybe, something like that.
 

Christophe

Subscriber
Lifetime Member
Oct 3, 2013
395
270
63
Albuquerque, NM, USA
Beautiful plants Christophe,

I dread replanting my AR mini in my aquasoil but love every other aspect of it. I look at the tanks on here that have inert substrates and the plants you all grow prove to me inert substrates such as BDBS is a better choice if you have a lot of stems or like to do a bit of replanting.

BTW what Led is that you have?

Dan
Just be slow and deliberate when pulling the stems, it won't be too bad. Also, only uproot just before your water change. That keeps it under control.

It's a Build My LED MC series light, got it right before they stopped serving the aquarium market. It's nice & solid, wish I had a second one for a little better spread, but one is sufficient for an 18" wide tank.


Great update. That's very interesting about sodium. Seems Im lucky to have a very small amount in my tap - 1.5 ppm, and 10 chloride which isnt exactly low but not too high either

Ive also been thinking about dosing macros a little differently, for the same reason said to have more even levels in the water column.

Once I settle on a good micro dose from the home brew, which it seems like Im pretty close to now. Im going to try something like you're doing, say a double dose after water changes and a regular dose mid week, on the 4th day maybe, something like that.

Comparing to your tap levels is what sent me down this path, sodium & chloride looked like the main differences between our waters. Since the plants do use chloride to some extent, I'm satisfied just to bring it down to single digits for now, 7 ppm.

I'm sticking with what I've got for a micro mix right now, I don't think it's too far off. Since I'm using so much DI water, I have go back to adding boron to it.

I'd love to hear what other people have for sodium levels in their water -- curious if anyone is growing a lot of plants successfully in 20+ ppm of sodium. I'm sure there's variation in species, some things probably don't mind it at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dman

Christophe

Subscriber
Lifetime Member
Oct 3, 2013
395
270
63
Albuquerque, NM, USA
Five weeks now into mostly remineralizing DI water to reduce my tap's sodium content. It's obvious now that it was messing with several plants' ability to adsorb potassium. Things that always looked iffy before are now much better!


Glandulosa had always been twisted, stunted off and on. New leaves still have a bit of twist to them, but they flatten out as they grow. Even the stem I was about to pitch 3 weeks ago has a new top coming in.

Acmella Repens especially showed deteriorating older leaves, growing pinholes, malformed new growth. The last few weeks growth looks pretty normal now.

Introducing "Sticky", the Twig Cat! A new resident as of two weeks ago.

I'm up to 50 green neons now. That's enough of that. Time to get some cories!
 

burr740

Micros Spiller
Moderator
Feb 16, 2015
1,404
1,328
113
Wow that was a dramatic turnaround! Plants look great now. You obviously pushed the right button.